Color Space confusion with the Scarlet and in General

[Ryan Emanuel]

I got a few questions, any constructive response is really appreciated. I keep thinking in circles. 1. So you have the options of recording RedlogFilm and Red Gammas, but how do you even see true red gamma spaces on a Rec 709 calibrated monitor? 2. From what I have read, noise only happens when you lift darks too much passed where they are supposed to be mapped by your iso selection. How are you guys creating your luts to properly map the dynamic range so you know your bounds in the darks. Is the Arri Lut basically doing that? Subquestion, is that Arri lut a transformation into a Rec 709 space. 3. (One of the dumber questions), if my external monitor is Rec 709, are the smpte-c color bars of any use? Apologies for the amatuerness, but if you guys could shed some light on your color space conversion workflow and monitor viewing, that would be awesome.

 

[David Rasberry]

REC709 is a broadcast display standard. For HD finish you want your monitor correctly calibrated for REC709 as your visual reference for grading. How your finished image looks on your monitor will then match to any other TV that is similarly calibrated.
The various camera color space and gamma settings give you multiple options for getting the best results from your footage and achieving the look you want. But you grade your footage to give you that look on a standards calibrated reference monitor. If you change the monitor to fit the footage, you no longer know what it will look like when broadcast.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

The one thing I want to correct you on is that, so long as you are recording to Red media and not to an external recording device over SDI or HDMI (like the Pix240 or the Atomos Samurai), you are not recording in a specific color space. The beauty of Raw: you can change the color space at any time.

The standard wisdom (straight from Graeme Nattress of Red) is to monitor in RedColor 3 and RedGamma 3 on set, and then to start your grade from RedColor 3 and RedLogFilm when you are in the final stages of post production.

You do not have to do things this way, and there are a few legitimate reasons/workflows that deviate from this method. But this is the intended primary workflow.

From there, depending on what grading software you are using, you could use a LUT to translate into Rec709 or another standard. Some even use an Arri LUT on their Red footage in, say, Da Vinci Resolve.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As to the "Arri LUT" I'm not sure to which you speak. Arri Log C? It's similarish to RED Log Film. It need not concern you unless you are unfortunate enough to have to deal with it.

REDLogFilm as Nick Mentioned or OpenEXR (Linear) are the best output settings. Both preserve the full image without clipping for the most part (assuming you don't apply any extreme grading in REDCine). You can then grade to how you want it to look. If you're happy with the look on your computer monitor just apply a sRGB -> rec709 LUT as your last step. Or work the whole time like David said on a dedicated monitor calibrated to Rec709. Working in Rec709 is nice if you have a dedicated screen you can calibrate to rec709 however if you're a multi-purpose machine it will be really bad for general computing.

 

[Ryan Emanuel]

Thanks for the responses, really appreciated. I'll be exposing for redlogfilm and monitoring in redgamma3, then creating a custom lut for the original redlogfilm on a rec 709 calibrated monitor.

 

[Mike P.]

Is there any inexpensive rec709 reference monitors out there (like ~$500)? I thinking like a decent consumer 24"-32" display that holds it's colours when the material is shown on other rec709 displays?

Also, does that mean you should apply rec709 Colour Space in RCX or rec709 gamma space in RCX (or both), if that is to be what you'll ultimately "broadcast" on... I was kind of under the impression that the rec709 options in RCX were essentially applying a LUT to your footage. SO, for example, I grade it as I see fit - e.g. RC3/RG3 - and then before export, switch the colour/gamma space to rec709 and while it looks like ass on a monitor, it would look pretty similar to the RC3/RG3 image on a rec709/HDtv display. Or is that completely wrong?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Is there any inexpensive rec709 reference monitors out there (like ~$500)? I thinking like a decent consumer 24"-32" display that holds it's colours when the material is shown on other rec709 displays?

Also, does that mean you should apply rec709 Colour Space in RCX or rec709 gamma space in RCX (or both), if that is to be what you'll ultimately "broadcast" on... I was kind of under the impression that the rec709 options in RCX were essentially applying a LUT to your footage. SO, for example, I grade it as I see fit - e.g. RC3/RG3 - and then before export, switch the colour/gamma space to rec709 and while it looks like ass on a monitor, it would look pretty similar to the RC3/RG3 image on a rec709/HDtv display. Or is that completely wrong?

Under $500!? No. Under $2500 yes.

 

[Mike P.]

I don't mean a broadcast monitor; I mean a consumer display that has surprisingly accurate rec709 results that hold across a broad number of other consumer-level displays...

That said, which $2500 panel were you thinking of?

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

The standard wisdom (straight from Graeme Nattress of Red) is to monitor in RedColor 3 and RedGamma 3 on set, and then to start your grade from RedColor 3 and RedLogFilm when you are in the final stages of post production.

I thought it was best to monitor RC3 and RedLogFilm on set for lighting and reference purposes, as viewing an image with a curve would trick you into thinking you would need more light in a dark area... etc...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I don't mean a broadcast monitor; I mean a consumer display that has surprisingly accurate rec709 results that hold across a broad number of other consumer-level displays...

That said, which $2500 panel were you thinking of?

There are Plasma displays that you can get professionally calibrated that hold up pretty well. For entry level, professional Rec709 monitors have a look at Flanders. Probably most bang for the buck right now. Still out of the price range for some, but if you are doing a lot of color work a good investment. HP Dreamcolor is another option.

 

[Mike P.]

Thanks for the heads-up, Steve!

 

[Kevin Marshall]

I thought it was best to monitor RC3 and RedLogFilm on set for lighting and reference purposes, as viewing an image with a curve would trick you into thinking you would need more light in a dark area... etc...

RedLogFilm isn't a proper gamma for viewing an image directly on a monitor without a LUT. It certainly could be a useful tool, but not how I monitor my images on set, and definitely not what I'd send out to a client monitor.

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I got a samsung series 9 computer display and x-rite idisplay pro and calibrated the monitor to REC 709, i think this deal would be under 500..
well, most people will tell you that this is an epic fail.. for me, I've compared it to a sony trinity that costed tens times more. I think I'm seeing a great percentage on this sammy.. the only bad thing I find is the viewing angles, you gotta place your head in the middle..

 

[Hector Berrebi]

1. So you have the options of recording RedlogFilm and Red Gammas, but how do you even see true red gamma spaces on a Rec 709 calibrated monitor?

color spaces and monitoring can be a complex topic. here are some points to help you think about it.

1. its not the color space you record in that really matters, but the color space of your final product, and how you are monitoring it i.e.. if you are outputting to broadcast HD or Bluray - REC 709,
and if you are outputting to digital cinema - DCI P3. you will need a monitor that supports the colorspace you will output.
2. the color spaces differ mainly in their GAMUT, or, how many colors can they represent out of the human visible spectrum. DCI P3's GAMUT is wider than 709, and monitors that support this color space are more expensive, FSI's LM2461W is a good option at a decent price for a monitor with a very wide GAMUT and DCI P3 support. their smaller CM170W, is only 17" (yet full HD in resolution) and at 3295$ is the least expensive monitor I know of, capable of both 4:4:4 and DCI P3 support, on a native 10 bit panel.
* from what I was told by the RED team at NAB, their REDRAY projector will have a wider color space than DCI P3, and will be grading quality for monitoring

in any way, outputting to a color space you cannot properly monitor is wrong. and risky.

3. watch out for xvYCC, its 709's successor (IEC 61966-2-4), supposedly better, and with a wider GAMUT. maybe the newer TV sets from sony already support it

4. LUTs are mainly for 2 things today (i'm almost sure). calibration, and film output.

hope this helps

hector