color grading monitor for web

[Peter Osinski]

Hey guys,

The type of work I do is 99% for web delivery, which means people watching on anything from an iphone to a full hd desktop, and most likely on an 8 bit monitor. Due to the viewing equipment of the end user I am trying to pick a color grading monitor that is not overkill for my purposes.

I have found that many of the new LG LCD panels are ISF certified which allow for proper calibration of the panels. Also, Best Buy claims that their calibration technicians are ISF certified to calibrate TV's. If I hooked up one of those calibrated screens to my davinci via declink card shouldn't that be good enough for my purposes?

 

[Marc Wielage]

ISF certification is only for getting a monitor in line with SMPTE RP166 and RP167 guidelines, and hopefully reproducing Rec709 colorspace. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with average computer displays hooked up to the net.

The standards for web displays are all over the map and subject to a lot of factors. Here's one document that tries to explain it:

http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2010/04/how-to-calibrate-color-for-the-web/

Me, I'm not convinced a video intended for broadcast will necessarily look good anywhere else. Datacolor has some documents on their Spyder system, and I know of some graphics pros who use this for creating web documents:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/display-calibration/

 

[Danai Chutinaton]

What software are you using for color grading? If you are delivering on the web the best thing to do is to simply get a decent IPS computer monitor and a calibrator such as the X-Rite i1Display Pro. Please tell me more about your setup so I can be more specific.

http://www.xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1454&catid=109&action=overview

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The biggest problem that occurs generally speaking are RGB vs YUV issues. For example in Media Composer if you are working in 16-235 and need to export for the web you need to export in 0-255 so it looks right on computer screens. So, in addition to proper calibration, make sure you are working and exporting in correct spaces. matching these properly will go a long way to good looking images on the web

 

[MichaelP]

As Steve says - Video levels versus Graphics levels always catch people by surprise when exporting for web (graphics levels). And while NLE's do allow a full swing image to be used (0-255), just be aware of that when exporting so there isn't a an additional correction being done that wasn't needed resulting in crushed blacks.

Michael

 

[Peter Osinski]

Danai: I am currently running adobe production premium cs5.5 and doing both editing and grading in premiere. In the next month or so I will begin using adobe cs6 and exporting to resolve 9 for grading. My setup is as follows.

win 7 ultimate
intel i7-2600k overclocked to 4.8ghz
16GB RAM
nvidia geforce gtx 570 w/ 4GB memory
raid 0 editing drive
2 x 23" aoc led monitors via DVI


I still have a display port and hdmi port left on my graphics card. If I pick up an IPS monitor with two different inputs and an intensity pro card then I should be able to run one signal from the graphics card so I can have three monitors for general work and then run another signal from the intensity (I have found that it should work with resolve 9 for monitoring) so I can just switch back and forth between graphics card and video card output.


Michael and Steve: My current workflow for web has been:

1. transcode gh2 mts files to prores using 5dtorgb and a batch script
2. import into Premiere Pro for edit
3. Edit and Grade Footage
4. Output to h.264 for web

I have looked at sequence settings, project settings, export settings, you name it and I cant find anything that mentions setting up or exporting a project for 0-255 vs 16-235. Where can I find these settings so I know my pipeline is correct?

 

[Nick Shaw]

I have looked at sequence settings, project settings, export settings, you name it and I cant find anything that mentions setting up or exporting a project for 0-255 vs 16-235. Where can I find these settings so I know my pipeline is correct?

Although many things (including ProRes) use 16-235 levels internally, most applications do not make that explicit to the user, and "pretend" things all work with 0-255 levels. This makes things simpler in theory for the less technical user, but it also causes a lot of problems as conversions of levels and gamma are going on automatically in the background with no option for the user to override the choice the software has decided on if it is incorrect.

Media Composer, Resolve and Baselight are three applications which spring to mind as being ones which give users control over levels (obviously there are others). After Effects does to some extent, but not IMHO enough to be useful. I am not a Premiere user, so can't really comment on how that deals with it. But the last version I looked at did not appear to have any options for dealing with 16-235 vs 0-255.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Although many things (including ProRes) use 16-235 levels internally, most applications do not make that explicit to the user, and "pretend" things all work with 0-255 levels. This makes things simpler in theory for the less technical user, but it also causes a lot of problems as conversions of levels and gamma are going on automatically in the background with no option for the user to override the choice the software has decided on if it is incorrect.

Media Composer, Resolve and Baselight are three applications which spring to mind as being ones which give users control over levels (obviously there are others). After Effects does to some extent, but not IMHO enough to be useful. I am not a Premiere user, so can't really comment on how that deals with it. But the last version I looked at did not appear to have any options for dealing with 16-235 vs 0-255.

I have to agree with you about After Effects. I have had some strange behavior moving media in and out of it, still trying to master the color management within that app, especially when you use Color Finesse.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

I am now truly SO confused!!!

Is there a resource that can truly explain the steps to prep both web and broadcast deliverables that are uniformly color correct and color "legal"?

We use AVID Symphony for our edit/color correct and shoot both RED (RAW) and VIPER (4:4:4 RGB 10 bit LOG).

Thank you!!!!

 

[Cory Petkovsek]

I am now truly SO confused!!!

Welcome to the club.

Is there a resource that can truly explain the steps to prep both web and broadcast deliverables that are uniformly color correct and color "legal"?

No. First of all, it's a complex field with a high barrier to entry, which is why you are "paid the big bucks" to learn it.

Next, broadcast deliverables depend upon the specifications set forth by your broadcaster. If you are submitting something to 10 broadcasters, then be prepared for 10 different sets of specifications. As for uniformly color correct and color legal, you can start with a broadcast monitor. Next color management will help with conversion to multiple formats like web, dvd, etc.

You can get budget broadcast color with a 10-bit matrox mxo2, decklink, or 8-bit intensity pro for $200-450, and a $200-300 used 14" or 20" sony CRT broadcast monitor. Then there are plenty of more expensive options if you need more features or performance; this is just the bottom.

Web deliverables have no standardization body, and therefore no specs. However you may confidently use the ones below.
Resolution: Discuss this with your web designer. I like 640x360 for 16:9 video.
Video codec: h264 (Encoder: x264 is one of the best)
Audio codec: AAC
See my website below for some examples.

For legal color, use a calibrated 8-bit IPS LCD panel or better (CRT, or grading monitor). If you use a broadcast monitor, all the better, but not necessary. I would not grade for web on a 6-bit tn panel which the cheap ones are. I get really good color for web out of the HP ZR24w. It's not pro equipment, but for about $400 it's pretty decent.

Edit: Also, read this thread. The colorist lore is the type of information you are looking for that you can't get anywhere else except from a colorist.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?84058-Colorist-please-help-me-here

Cory