color correction?

[JFUNK]

Ive mainly used color correction in final cut pro. With the Red camera, some people are suggesting using outside color correction programs.. is this necessary, or will FCP be fine?
what are the advantages to an outside color correction system, and what do you recommend??

Also, with the LUT's for the RED, how do these work, and do they work within FCP, or is this through Red Cine or another program?

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Before putting a complete "tutorial" on how to use color correction , i'll just give some basic things :
- If it's an Hd shot in good conditions for broadcast TV , Then FCP with AE will do the job (except if you have 90 min film) . I guess that you have always done before .

- Now with red one using 2K/4K , a preliminary test is the first step to do and many on that forum are waiting for the results . Grading will allow you to group similar shots and aplly them the same color correction (for the primaries ) then fine tune up with the secondaries . Many NLE and compositing softwares can do the job but they are slow and not specialized for these tasks . Here the ones i know :
- Iridas speedgrade (about 10 K$) fast easy with no extra hardware and gives valuable results (is it used by Arri) .
- Autodesk Lustre (better to rent it) It's about 150 K and not so easy . However you may edit and grade an uncopmressed 4K so fast .
- A new version of Cinespace 2.5 (price ???) but it's can be interfaced with popular softwares like shake , nuke and digital fusion . It's also calibrates luts and monitor colors for windows , linux and mac for the same shots .
- Premiere pro 2 with color finesse (if you have cineform prospect HD or 2K) .

Grading is not like conventionnal "color correction" it follows a logical and organized pipelined tasks .

That's all what i know . Hope somebody else will give you more .

Regards .

 

[Bruce Allen]

JFUNK, the problem is that FCP's color correction tools are basic. It is very frustrating to do power windows, for one thing.

The idea is that if you're spending $40,000 on a camera package, storage, etc, you might as well spend a bit of effort on making the footage look good. Also, RED is specifically designed to give footage that is nicely malleable with more advanced color correction tools.

If you don't do a good CC, there's a distinct chance your Red footage won't look as succulent to the average viewer as the footage from someone shooting on a $5000 HDV camera but doing a real CC session.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

What you get in that post is the software list . The hardware one may be more or less expensive . Now since color grading software are using sequence files (no AVI or quick time) , so is very important to know the size of the transcoded footages by redcine . some softwares like lustre use only uncompressed files . At the end no recomended configuration or techniques can be suggested at the moment (the upcoming configuration will depend on speed , wich it's self depends on the size of transcoded files ) . You may keep you FCP/AE configuration until the results are shown . Another point if you have a poor grahic card (an nvidia fx Quadro is the strict minimuml) , a slow firwire sata storge and a cheap HTDV monitor , so don't expect something good even with the most expensive softwares .

Regards

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jumping back to RED and LUTs, I know that there will be some predefined LUTs for common color spaces that can be applied in REDCINE when processing REDCODE RAW to REDCODE RGB or other desired format. But since now (apparently) we'll be able to use REDCODE RAW from within any Quicktime application, what does that do to us? Can we now assign the desired LUT from within the REDCODE QT settings? I wonder what LUTs will be included with RED/REDCINE? Will we have some to emulate various film stock in addition to common electronic color spaces? Can we create our own tables? I guess this will all be spelled out at NAB, just one of those things that we're all eagerly awaiting details on.

 

[Sean]

Why do you have to have cineform prospect HD or 2K to use Color Finesse with Premiere pro 2? Does the same go for After Effects?

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

A NLE is combination of software/hardware . adobe with it's Premiere Pro is not manifacturing hardaware (unlike Avid or Canopus) , so it's relay on Aja boards , unfortunatly you will not achieve realtime editing unlike you add a software codec (raylight or cineform) . When it's comes to 2K the resolution is too big to be handled by premiere Pro so a bundle of cineform ( prospect 2K) can take charge of that .

Color finesse is the only 32 bits plugin (now there is also cinespace but it's quite different and not for adobe suite) "color corrector" that handle primaries , secondaries and Lut . It' a lot faster on premiere . The same color finesse goes for AE except that AE is slow on 2K/4K.

Regards .

 

[Clayton Harper]

I am hoping and praying somebody tries to bring something back to the $5000 price point like we used to have before Apple kidnapped Final Touch HD. The XML support and the insanity associated with getting a project in the suite made me want to firebomb my computer but the features were rocking.

10k for speedgrade is too expensive for a small shop. Hopefully, Scratch or even Apple will give us a GPU-based application at NAB to fill that niche.

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

For AppliedVisual . Yes you can create your own Lut on almost any professional video software like FCP , Avid , digtal fusion , shake , nuke , speedgrade , or lustre .... Among all the NLE and compositing softwares few are dedicated to the grading and 2D/3D luts tasks .

Regards

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

For lordnumberzero . You can make your job on AE (even with import/export luts) for less than 5 K , if you can wait 7 to 10 days rendering a 2K cineon or 16 bits (even with nucleo) . Now if you have Fiber channel storage and nvidia 5500 SDI (on linux/PC don't know for mac) you can get it done by the weekend or less time . The problem is not the new or old soft/hard solutions , but how the redcode can be integrated in the softwares used for your files to be graded . I have seen somewhere in that forum that a user did not succeed tu use redcode with AE . Now Let's get to the fact , since there is no hardware capture cards involved in the passage of red movies to the computer and red cine can transcode to any codec , The only thing that remains is : Will these softwares accept this codec for import and export or not? . Try to use Avid DNxHD codec on combustion , is not even listed on the available codec list in combustion . The expensive solutions use uncompressed files effecienly so no more need for any codec , and they are fast for that . If redcodec can be used by only 2 or 3 apps that will be GREAT AND FINAL.

Regards

 

[Anders Holck]

The real show stopper (currently) with FCP is that it only supports 8 bit in RGB mode.
That means Redcode will be truncated to 8 bit, before rendering, all plug-ins will run in a 8 bit render pipeline, and he output will be 8 bit only.

The Fx-plug architecture supports floats in RGB mode, and a few new plugins look very promising at supplying powerful tools with custom interfaces right inside FCP.

But let's see with FCP 6 around the corner, there are pretty good chances that Apple has fixed the Rendering engine for >8 bit RGB support, and let's not forget that they bought Siliconcolor last year, although it's a bit too early for a product to be based on that acquisition.

 

[Geoff Bailey]

I think there are two routes to go here:

1. No-budget. Edit offline footage in FCP. Export final sequence to AfterEffects or ColorFinesse (or the rumored Final Touch replacement). Conform using 2K or 4K footage and do color work.

PROS: Do everything on your home computer. Inexpensive.

CONS: Not realtime. This is a big limitation for doing color correct work. If you are trying cut corners here, then I have to assume that you won't have calibrated monitors or projectors to work on. So everything you are doing is really guesswork.

2. Edit offline in FCP. Conform with 2k footage. Take to a posthouse to perform a color correct in dedicated suite. There are options here: 1080p 4:2:2 finish (Quantel, Discreet Lustre) to 2k, 4:4:4 (Avid Nitris, DiVinci).

PROS: Realtime. Work with a professional colorist (trust me they are better and faster at this than you are. It's their job). Work with a calibrated system. What you see is what you get.

CONS: Expensive. Anywhere from $500 to $1500 an hour.

However, I'll just say that personally, if you are thinking about dropping $40,000 - $75,000 on a camera package, I would find it poor planning to not budget for a proper post workflow. You can alway find deals and it is just part of the budget. You are not skimping on the camera, why skimp on the finishing work.

Finally, I've read that the ASC is trying to formalize the color correction information in a way similar to XML or EDL. This would open up a middle ground. Edit offline, perform a realtime, offline CC in FCP. Then bring that info to a CC session for final tweaking. This is what I'm hoping for in the near future.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

CONS: Expensive. Anywhere from $500 to $1500 an hour.

Does anyone know, ballpark, how many hours of CC it takes to finish of a 90 min feature if you´re paying $500 to $1,500 an hour?

 

[wlaroussi]

HI ,

What Finegrit says , is a big part of the video/cinema workflow :

- small budget : media composer/FCP/protools then export the EDL list , but don't mess around with the final project (what it's should be projected) . In other words avoid modifications past the postproduction step . Then just rent an autodesk smoke/lustre(4K) or an avid ds nitris , for a day or two .

- Big budget : The same as above . With more flexibility and diffrents tools . I have never met someone who's story boarder , scenarist , cameraman , EDL specialist , colorist compositor ....and a distributor . We will see for the next upcoming generations . However if your rich enough to by a red one and lustre , smoke or avid DS nitris and have scenarios ready for execution then you are almost a real big film maker .

Reagrds .

 

[Gbabymogul]

Does anyone know, ballpark, how many hours of CC it takes to finish of a 90 min feature if you´re paying $500 to $1,500 an hour?

Depends on the deliverable, but I'd say a minimum (very simple transitions and effects) 10 hours. So, you'd be in the ballpark of $10-15K.

Usually, the bigger shows/media takes the prime hours and the best colorists etc...(at least in T.O)Maybe someone who works in one can chime in.

If you can farm out the work you can find better rates and comparably talented people. We've found some amazing people in the U/K, and there are some French effects houses that will do the work for 1/10th (with the same quality) of the price.

As always, shop around.





:beer:

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes you can create your own Lut on almost any professional video software like FCP , Avid , digtal fusion , shake , nuke , speedgrade , or lustre .... Among all the NLE and compositing softwares few are dedicated to the grading and 2D/3D luts tasks .

This is partially true. Non linear editing packages do not create or support LUTs. FCP, Avid, Vegas, etc. do not create LUTs and do not support LUTs.

The compositing packages you mention above - Digital Fusion, Shake, and Nuke - can create and import LUTs.

The color packages you mention - SpeedGrade and Lustre - can also create and import LUTs. Actually... I'm not sure that Lustre can create LUTs, but I know it can import them with no issues.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

 

[Lucas Wilson]

... Then just rent an autodesk smoke/lustre(4K) or an avid ds nitris , for a day or two .

...However if your rich enough to by a red one and lustre , smoke or avid DS nitris ... .

DS Nitris is not a color grading package. You can do very successful color grading with DS, and it does have very good grading tools. But it is not a dedicated color grading tool. It has minimal realtime color layering capability, cannot import 3D LUTs, does not support any kind of panel, and cannot directly support 2K or 4K.

Most customers, when walking into a "color bay," expect a standard set of tools for realtime color correction which DS does not have.

Neither does Smoke, for that matter. Lustre is the only tool above that is a true color grading platform.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Seriously consider something like AutomaticDuck for AE or Combustion. It'll let you drop your timeline from Avid or FCP etc straight into your timeline. Just change your drive letter to the uncompressed footage and change the composite settings to "4k" and away you go. Should take only about half an hour to set up and start grading.

Also Fusion has built in EDL support.

If you're grading on the cheap you can easily grade in almost real time on a single proxy frame. Then hit render and watch it flow.

p.s. Combustion should import anything your codecs can handle no? Although uncompressed would be more responsive.

 

[tj williams]

1. Why does no one mention the DaVinci CC which is ubiquitous around here. This is a wonderful fully featured color corrector which is hired with the operator.

2. The best colorist in our town has been doing the work over 10 years. The output I've seen there is noticeably superior to editors using edit system color correctors. Many of the producers I work for will pay more to have him do their work! Probably a combination of skills, native ability, and system.

3. Clearly better color correction can be obtained direct from the negative whether film or 4K raw. Thus it will be much better if we are using cheap cc in a desktop editor like fcp, if the 4K file can be imported.

4. Cineform's wavelet compression works with Premiere and I thinks soon FCP, I have not heard that it is compatible with RED Raw. Since this solution is selling well it would probably be to our advantage if they choose to address RED Raw as that would make more desktop systems able to edit our output.

 

[Billy Summers]

Does anyone know, ballpark, how many hours of CC it takes to finish of a 90 min feature if you´re paying $500 to $1,500 an hour?

Average amount of cuts in a 90 minute feature is about a thousand. The hours it takes to CC, if your working with a colorist on a formal CC system (Davinci,Polgo etc.) is 16-24 hours when there are no problems and the work is going relatively fast. You can usually work with the "night" colorist for a better price than the daytime commercial rate (less than 500).
And don't be afraid to try and negotiate either.:gun: