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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Color Checker and IPP2 Issues

Aris_Gavriilidis

Aris_Gavriilidis

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Hello everyone, I seem to be having some issues with balancing my image with the color checker during an IPP2 workflow. I'm working with Epic Dragon footage in Resolve 14. I set it to RedWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 and then apply the IPP2 LUT of my choice, usually I go with HIGH_CONTRAST_Rolloff_4. The way I understand it, is that these LUTs take the footage into a BT.1886 Rec709 space, so when I use the chart tool to balance the image with the color checker (I'm using the classic one by the way, not the passport) I set the source gamma to Rec709, nonetheless when it color-matches the image, there's some weird stuff going on with the colors. It's not terrible but it certainly doesn't look accurate, nowhere close actually. Can anyone help me out on how I can use the color checker in an IPP2 workflow within Resolve? Thanks
 
Actually with IPP2 it's probably better to not use the color check for now but shoot a Grey chart and WB the grey chart.

David
 
okay but if you can't calibrate to color checker then the color isn't calibrated either, right?
 
So essentially at the moment there's no way to balance colors with a chart while working with IPP2......great.....and still in beta? I thought IPP2 had reached its final stage. I'm starting to get tired with this "forever beta" status of it. I'm hoping that RedWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 are added to the source color space options in Resolve in the color checker matching window soon. It still seems odd though, if I recall correctly, in his own tests, Phil Holland balanced the image to a chart.
 
Doesn't sound like an IPP2 issue at all but a Resolve one.

Graeme
 
Take auto color matching and throw it in the trash and use scopes and your eyes with charts just as a visual reference.
 
Aris_Gavriilidis said:
Sand still in beta? I thought IPP2 had reached its final stage.
Click to expand...
IPP2 has not been released in an SDK yet. From what I can see, Red is working out the kinks of IPP2 in RCX. Once it is stable, then they will release an SDK with IPP2. Then companies like Adobe and BMD can release new software with IPP2 in it. in Adobe's case, it will probably take several months as they are a large company with their own release schedule and they want to make sure things are stable in their app.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Take auto color matching and throw it in the trash and use scopes and your eyes with charts just as a visual reference.
Click to expand...
I have never actually seen it produce good results. There is also the issue of accurate vs. pleasing color. For cinematic work, accurate is not accurate. :)
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Take auto color matching and throw it in the trash and use scopes and your eyes with charts just as a visual reference.
Click to expand...
That would be my advice as well. I would also recommend the DSC charts as being more accurate overall (but they are more costly).

Stacey Spears said:
I have never actually seen it produce good results. There is also the issue of accurate vs. pleasing color. For cinematic work, accurate is not accurate. :)
Click to expand...
Stacey is very wise. I have had discussions like this before with DPs: "do you want this to be accurate in terms of exactly what you saw on the set, or do you want something that's aesthetically pleasing?" If we come up with two looks like that, they'll almost always go with the more pleasing look, particularly if it enhances the positive elements and diminishes any problems.
 
I've been waiting for someone else to have this issue. We ran into a similar issue shooting epic-w under a mixed lighting situation. The skin tones were just going haywire. So we shot with a color chart for reference and a grey card. Hopefully they fix it soon.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Doesn't sound like an IPP2 issue at all but a Resolve one.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Indeed, although RedWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 are options in the R3D source settings, they have yet to add proper controls like the latest RedCine-X build where you can choose contrast and rolloff from drop-down menus, in Resolve I still have to choose one of the 52 current IPP2 LUTs, which is fine, but it's an extra step I'd rather not have to take, hopefully the folks at Blackmagic will add proper support soon. More importantly I hope it's added in the color checker window settings too.
 
Marc Wielage said:
That would be my advice as well. I would also recommend the DSC charts as being more accurate overall (but they are more costly).


Stacey is very wise. I have had discussions like this before with DPs: "do you want this to be accurate in terms of exactly what you saw on the set, or do you want something that's aesthetically pleasing?" If we come up with two looks like that, they'll almost always go with the more pleasing look, particularly if it enhances the positive elements and diminishes any problems.
Click to expand...

I go for aesthetically pleasing too when grading, it's just that I prefer to start with an image that's as balanced, or color "accurate" as possible.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Take auto color matching and throw it in the trash and use scopes and your eyes with charts just as a visual reference.
Click to expand...

Yup, bought the damn chart, did a few match-ups and it never gets anywhere near anything good. Also comes out with tons of weird color banding issues in color transitions. It's like the "editor auto-animate text" feature for color correction.
 
Aris_Gavriilidis said:
So essentially at the moment there's no way to balance colors with a chart while working with IPP2......great.....and still in beta? I thought IPP2 had reached its final stage. I'm starting to get tired with this "forever beta" status of it. I'm hoping that RedWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 are added to the source color space options in Resolve in the color checker matching window soon. It still seems odd though, if I recall correctly, in his own tests, Phil Holland balanced the image to a chart.
Click to expand...

Forever beta? Jesus man.... There's been 2 beta IPP2 firmware releases and both relatively recently. Nobody is forcing you to use it and no idea how you've had time to be tired of it.

And yes as people say balancing to a chart is a thing you do yourself. You don't just press an 'auto' button and expect good results.
 
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Auto-colour matching is a fundamentally flawed approach to image manipulation, stuffed in professional colour grading tools, misleading its less experienced users and overall production domain that it is a serious tool.
It is not.


1) Digital colour values of the chart are ideal values, of a "perfectly" light controlled and lit shot without any casts.
In a real life scene light values vary based on nature of light and its effect on the environment, the environment which does not tend to be grey.

2) Attempting to bring chips into ideal values algorithms mess up the image doing "something" to image particulars. Which afterwards requires examination and likely re-tweaking or undoing what dumb algorithms did and wasting time focus and energy on nonsense instead of using it on complete control over the image from the very start.

3) Light values on the chart are light values on that point in space. Space, unless consisting only of monochromatic grayscale objects varies in light tonality. Which affects colour rendition. Algorithms don't care and will chase target values no matter what.

4) Auto-matching algorithm does not see what you see nor does it know what you prioritize.
Your mind "irons" temperature and tint depending on context and your decisions are based on what you see and how it all feels like.

5) Colour grading is a process which requires consideration, understanding and decisions.
Those are properties of a living, rational Being.

Don't send an algorithm to do a Human's job.
 
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