Color balancing Scarlet-X and Canon C300

[Matt Ryan]

This is why some of you guys give Red a bad rep. Here are some more honest C300 tests, including the waves, moire and extensive grading.

This test isn't the same. Put the sun in the frame and it will cause problems like what Sanjin posted. Try it.

As for "extensive grading," that is far far far away from extensive grading.

I'm not saying the C300 is bad, just you can't base assumptions on web video's. If you really want to test put them side by side like Sanjin and shoot for yourself.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Guys,

Don't worry because I'm still testing both RED Scarlet X and Canon C300 side by side.

And the first important impression is that on both cameras with using the same lens with the same ISO, the same shutter and at the same aperture

C300 brings more exposure (or here in the test doing overexposure) either in sunny daylight or at night in available light.

To illustrate this what I've said have a look at the images below and click on each to resize in 1080 HD.


Shot on Scarlet-X with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ f/8, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.


Shot on Canon C300 with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ f/8, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.


Shot on Scarlet-X with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ f/2.8, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.


Shot on Canon C300 with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ f/2.8, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.


Shot on Scarlet-X with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ wide open f/1.4, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.


Shot on Canon C300 with Leica Summilux 50mm R f/1.4 @ wide open f/1.4, ISO 800, shutter 1/48, 24 fps, 5000K.

More about color balancing between both cameras is coming up soon in the next days or weeks...stay tuned!

 

[António Fagundes]

I'm not saying the C300 is bad, just you can't base assumptions on web video's. If you really want to test put them side by side like Sanjin and shoot for yourself.

That goes both ways no...? SO why is judging Sanjin's videos alright then??

And what do you mean, put the sun in the frame? The sun is right above the frame, it's backlit, that's the point! The sun's highlights are in the water, exactly as in Sanjin's clips. The problem was in the water not in the sun!!

Do you really want to fool yourself and try to find problems that don't actually exist?

If grading from 3200 to 5600 is not enough for you, then you really shouldn't be going anywhere near a camera. I have never, ever had to grade something as much as completely altering tungsten to daylight. Meaning, if a camera can handle that, it will handle anything. And meaning if you shoot tungsten and then you want daylight, you're a bad & irresponsible DP...

Just saying...

 

[Matt Ryan]

That goes both ways no...? SO why is judging Sanjin's videos alright then??

And what do you mean, put the sun in the frame? The sun is right above the frame, it's backlit, that's the point! The sun's highlights are in the water, exactly as in Sanjin's clips. The problem was in the water not in the sun!!

Do you really want to fool yourself and try to find problems that don't actually exist?

If grading from 3200 to 5600 is not enough for you, then you really shouldn't be going anywhere near a camera. I have never, ever had to grade something as much as completely altering tungsten to daylight. Meaning, if a camera can handle that, it will handle anything. And meaning if you shoot tungsten and then you want daylight, you're a bad & irresponsible DP...

Just saying...

your ridiculous.

I'm not here judging either camera. I never care when someone posts tests because to me I want to test them myself, and for my specific shoot.

Above and in frame are two different things and if you knew how compression and sensors work you would see the difference.

Obviously you shoot with the correct color temp given the situation.....but if this was to ever arise I could do the same thing with the scarlet without a significant "grade."

Your on the site Reduser, you should expect a slant towards RED. If your looking for something else, go somewhere else.

I did not once say the C300 was bad, or the Scarlet is better. I'm not here to compare based on someone else's tests or their info....By the way I use both regularly....

It's never good for either side to compare a camera theyve never touched or used. I've seen terrible footage come from every camera on the market. You cant judge until you've used them. My $0.02

 

[António Fagundes]

What makes you think I haven't used them? I've shot Red a bunch of times, ever since their first Red One Mysterium, shot Alexa, shot Sony, 35mm, and yes, the C300 tests were shot by me! And if you look at the tests, there is a shot with the sun in the frame with some tree branches, no fringing, CA or any other garbage. It's clean. Its a powerful sensor. The lens was a Canon 24-105, a terrible lens, but the camera still held up amazingly.

All I'm saying is that, people need to recognize that the race is on. Either Red upgrades to Dragon, and make that a worthwhile upgrade, otherwise, Red will start loosing some flair. As proven here, a tiny camera, more consumer like than professional can stand alongside any Red camera. That's scary.

Don't call me ridiculous again. Please.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Your making a lot of false assumptions. Never did I say you didn't use them. What I said is people shouldn't make assumptions on either side until they have used them.

Choose what camera works best for you. That's all that matters.

Both are in the same price range.

No offense by calling your post ridiculous, but it was full of things taken out of context.

An upgraded sensor is needed, no doubt for RED to stay ahead of the game. But for all intensive purposes you have two great cameras to choose from.

Everyone who does side by side tests will get slightly different results. Thats how things go. Thats why I say test for yourself (meaning people in general) before making assumptions.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

That goes both ways no...? SO why is judging Sanjin's videos alright then??

And what do you mean, put the sun in the frame? The sun is right above the frame, it's backlit, that's the point! The sun's highlights are in the water, exactly as in Sanjin's clips. The problem was in the water not in the sun!!

Do you really want to fool yourself and try to find problems that don't actually exist?

If grading from 3200 to 5600 is not enough for you, then you really shouldn't be going anywhere near a camera. I have never, ever had to grade something as much as completely altering tungsten to daylight. Meaning, if a camera can handle that, it will handle anything. And meaning if you shoot tungsten and then you want daylight, you're a bad & irresponsible DP...

Just saying...

Could you cite any source that could prove that these issues that has been documented by several C300 owners and seems very much in line with Canon's marketing description of the camera's pixel binning method are, as you say, "problems that don't actually exist"?

Are you implying that the images that Sanjin Jukic, Alister Chapman, and Paul Joy posted are fictitious or not in fact from a C300 as they state? Or how would you explain these images?

It certainly seems that once an issue like this arises the burden of proof is not with those documenting the issue, but with those that disagree to disprove those findings. I would far rather be aware of a problem that does not exist than not be aware of a problem that does.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

"a tiny camera, more consumer like than professional can stand alongside any Red camera"
- António Fagundes

Did you miss the fact that this "consumer" camera costs almost exactly the same as the Red Scarlet-X? It should be able to stand right along side the Scarlet otherwise it would have been laughed out of the market.
Price of Canon C300 from B&H - $15,999
Price of Red Scarlet-X AL Canon Mount Package - $15,965

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

Look. Both cameras are powerful creative tools (in the right hands). Use whatever tool helps you to tell your story, share your visions, sell your product, or whatever. But, at the end of the day, the camera is just a tool. The thing to keep in mind about RED, their products, their technology, and yes, their attitude, is that they have seriously "moved the ball down the field." Sony, Panasonic, JVC, and Canon wouldn't be trying to play "catch-up" if it wasn't for RED. Whatever shakes out, we will all be better off as a result.


____________________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Betty Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

What makes you think I haven't used them? I've shot Red a bunch of times, ever since their first Red One Mysterium, shot Alexa, shot Sony, 35mm, and yes, the C300 tests were shot by me! And if you look at the tests, there is a shot with the sun in the frame with some tree branches, no fringing, CA or any other garbage. It's clean. Its a powerful sensor. The lens was a Canon 24-105, a terrible lens, but the camera still held up amazingly.

All I'm saying is that, people need to recognize that the race is on. Either Red upgrades to Dragon, and make that a worthwhile upgrade, otherwise, Red will start loosing some flair. As proven here, a tiny camera, more consumer like than professional can stand alongside any Red camera. That's scary.

Don't call me ridiculous again. Please.

its canons most expensive camera and you call it consumer?

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

today i have finished my first Broadcast commercial job (colorist) shot on ALEXA and C300 ... i can't tell you how much i hated the C300 pictures (they shot the same scene from 2 angles (ALEXA and C300 )

Way lower dynamic range , blocky artifacts , banding .... (couple of setups was quite challenging i have to say (light wise0 but alexa was perfect and C300 made me struggle ...

g

 

[António Fagundes]

Could you cite any source that could prove that these issues that has been documented by several C300 owners and seems very much in line with Canon's marketing description of the camera's pixel binning method are, as you say, "problems that don't actually exist"?

Are you implying that the images that Sanjin Jukic, Alister Chapman, and Paul Joy posted are fictitious or not in fact from a C300 as they state? Or how would you explain these images?

It certainly seems that once an issue like this arises the burden of proof is not with those documenting the issue, but with those that disagree to disprove those findings. I would far rather be aware of a problem that does not exist than not be aware of a problem that does.

Please pay attention! Sanjin shot in EOS Standard, a consumer like profile, who spends money on a C300 to shoot EOS Standard anyway? the camera costs 15$ because of its sensor in conduction with its Canon Log!

Paul Joy has already stated that those artifacts were caused by him unintentionally setting the camera to shoot at 50i, so that's an interlaced aliasing, a frame has it, the next doesn't! Who shoots 50i anyway!?

Anything else?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Please pay attention! Sanjin shot in EOS Standard, a consumer like profile, who spends money on a C300 to shoot EOS Standard anyway? the camera costs 15$ because of its sensor in conduction with its Canon Log!

Hey man... at least he's bothering to go and do tests for us! If you want to get a Scarlet and a C300 and post some of your own stuff, that's cool.

Sanjin, thanks for doing the tests - they are extremely helpful and awesome.

Would love to see RAW R3D of a short clip... plus short C300 clip in Log mode if you can, please!

Then we can just convert both and separate fact from fiction RE grading latitude, etc.

I do think that if you're trying to color balance C300 to match Scarlet-X, Log mode is the way to go?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[António Fagundes]

Hey man... at least he's bothering to go and do tests for us! If you want to get a Scarlet and a C300 and post some of your own stuff, that's cool.

Sanjin, thanks for doing the tests - they are extremely helpful and awesome.

Would love to see RAW R3D of a short clip... plus short C300 clip in Log mode if you can, please!

Then we can just convert both and separate fact from fiction RE grading latitude, etc.

I do think that if you're trying to color balance C300 to match Scarlet-X, Log mode is the way to go?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I did bother as well, as I posted some C300 Log mode clips (if you bothered to see them...)

You're welcome!

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

For the record NO color profile causes moire, that's a sensor/algorithm issue with detail. Not sure what caused the water blooming, your explanation about 50i very well could be the culprit.

 

[Bill Anderson]

The Scarlet night shots are simply underexposed. Of course they could be adjusted/fixed in post, but that isn't the point at this stage of "testing". Learn how to place light values accurately - In this case highlight values. Fixing ISO and exposure values between cameras is a throw back to film emulsion days: it is way less meaningful (subjective) with sensors. Find the optimum ISO for all cameras being tested under prevailing conditions and use it in combination with accurately PLACED exposure values. i.e, the highlights on the wall next to the street lamp. THEN take a look at shadow detail, and so on.

In this scenario: expose the highlight values in the C300 to hold texture throughout. Then asses the DR/shadow values. The Scarlet obviously has a lot of meat to work with in this example.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

today i have finished my first Broadcast commercial job (colorist) shot on ALEXA and C300 ... i can't tell you how much i hated the C300 pictures (they shot the same scene from 2 angles (ALEXA and C300 )

Way lower dynamic range , blocky artifacts , banding .... (couple of setups was quite challenging i have to say (light wise0 but alexa was perfect and C300 made me struggle ...

g

Gabriele,

C300 has 12 stops of DR and Alexa has 12.5 of DR (Arri's marketing of 14 stops probably can be seen virtually only with a special Arri made DR glasses but not in a real world).

C300 has 8-bit 4:2:2 output of 10-bit wrapper file.

Anyway you should always try out to mach first a higher quality file format (in your case Alexa 10 bit Prores) with inferior 8-bit (C300) but not vice versa to get blocky artifacts, banding, etc,..

Please pay attention! Sanjin shot in EOS Standard, a consumer like profile, who spends money on a C300 to shoot EOS Standard anyway? the camera costs 15$ because of its sensor in conduction with its Canon Log!

Paul Joy has already stated that those artifacts were caused by him unintentionally setting the camera to shoot at 50i, so that's an interlaced aliasing, a frame has it, the next doesn't! Who shoots 50i anyway!?

Anything else?

António,

I can't even begin to understand what you're talking about!!!???

Hey man... at least he's bothering to go and do tests for us! If you want to get a Scarlet and a C300 and post some of your own stuff, that's cool.

Sanjin, thanks for doing the tests - they are extremely helpful and awesome.

Would love to see RAW R3D of a short clip... plus short C300 clip in Log mode if you can, please!

Then we can just convert both and separate fact from fiction RE grading latitude, etc.

I do think that if you're trying to color balance C300 to match Scarlet-X, Log mode is the way to go?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce,

thanks a lot for your kind support and understanding.

As already wrote above I would first try out to match the higher format R3D to inferior 8-Bit MXF because it's could be easier to achieve a goal than in opposite way to get diverse artifacts.

Anyway per your idea and request I\m giving now to fellow Reduser one R3D snap from Scarlet-X (REDLogFilm) to try out color match with another snap shot from C300 in "Canon Log" Gamma (download below tiff image file in 1080p HD size).

Also my shooting with ultimate combo rig Scarlet/C300 and testing of color mating between both cameras continues...

Stay tuned...

Shot on Scarlet-X R3D output in RCX REDLogFilm, EI ISO 800, 5500K, 24 fps, shutter 1/48
Lens: Leica Vario Elmarit R 21-35mm f/3.5/4 @ f/5.6; Filters: ND 1.2 Formatt, Circ-Pola Formatt.
Time of shooting: 16.15 PM

Download R3D>>>

Shot on C300 using "Canon Log" Gamma set with "CP CINEMA Locked" setting; EI ISO 800, 5500K, 24 fps, shutter 1/48
Lens Canon EF 24-70mm L @ f/8, Filters: Built-in ND2 (4-stops reduction/16x; ND 1.2) plus Circ-Pola screw in filter from Tiffen.
Time of shooting: 16.15 PM

Download VLSsnap 8-bit png file in 1920x1080, 2.2MB>>>

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Please pay attention! Sanjin shot in EOS Standard, a consumer like profile, who spends money on a C300 to shoot EOS Standard anyway? the camera costs 15$ because of its sensor in conduction with its Canon Log!

Paul Joy has already stated that those artifacts were caused by him unintentionally setting the camera to shoot at 50i, so that's an interlaced aliasing, a frame has it, the next doesn't! Who shoots 50i anyway!?

Anything else?

Take it easy, no need to shout

I am paying attention, I agree that in general tests might be more relevant if done with the C300 in C-log (and sharpening off) since it seems to be the only mode that fully takes advantage of the camera's capabilities (good that you can take advantage of performance without upgrades, bad that other modes with proper viewing gamma do not appear provide the same latitude) but I hardly think that has any bearing on this issue of color fringing. If you would like to disprove these multiple reports of color fringing in high contrast, high frequency detail, please shoot your own battery of tests and provide images in reasonably quality that pixel accuracy is somewhat preserved AND provide reasonably evidence-supported alternative explanations that may explain the findings of the three other users I listed who all reported this issue publicly. You have done none of these things. I appreciate the video you shared and it does make me interested in seeing whether the issue may be easy to avoid, but it is extremely difficult to see much of anything in the highly compressed video you provided that appears to be a bit soft and far too compressed to judge anything at the pixel level.

If somehow this issue is connected with a picture style (though it seems quite unlikely from my understanding of how picture styles work) it would still be good to know what picture style and why. I don't doubt that the issue is somewhat exacerbated by high in-camera sharpening that further increases the saturation and contrast of these very bright color fringes. All of the images Sanjin posted do seem to show a fair amount of over sharpening.

Could you cite a source (web link preferably) about Paul Joy's explanation you refer to? I cannot find it, as his latest blog update still only seems states that he found these color fringing issues.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

No any grades???

Guys, I'll gonna come with the brand new files or images tonight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also ccoming up 85N9 ± Pola variants....!!!???

A lot of red wine was involved in this sort of transaction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sanjin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mike Garrick]

Hey Sanjin

Down loaded the red frame grab fine cant get get the other link to work.