Cold shooting...

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Jim, what do early adopters get for buying that Red-propane stove?

I recommend this small stove for Red in location :
http://www.factorydirect2you.com/dewarefanhes.html

 

[Jonas Rejman]

RED is already addressing the problem:

REDtorch

Certified for arctic regions (-30C/-10F).

Works on camera and crew.

 

[Erik Rangel]

RED is already addressing the problem:

REDtorch

Certified for arctic regions (-30C/-10F).

Works on camera and crew.

WOW She's HOT....ok I'm leaving:tongue:

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Jim, this makes no sense to me. Red has no hard drive and presumably no moving parts other than fans. The electronics in my car 'boot up' just fine at -40C. The film cameras with which Red will be competing work quite well down to -40C also.

I posted this a while ago...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89097#post89097

Could you explain the technical reasons why cold should be a factor at all with this camera?

Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go. Saying it's a California-weather-only camera won't cut it. How can I help?

PS: It's -9C outside my window right now.

Again, this isn't an issue of condensation, or moisture, or moving parts. Its about the environmental limitations of the actual electronics, which are generally rated to about 0c for commercial grade electronic components, and -40c for industrial grade.

In the end, it sounds like RED may have chosen commercial-grade components for the the FPGA, Imaging Sensor, etc. I can't blame them, it would have brought the cost of the camera up substantially.

To say that the camera isn't a viable rental option is a bit extreme. Most, if not all, commercial-grade digital cameras have this same limitation, including the F23, F900, Dalsa, D-20, HVX200, HLX1, etc, etc. It may not be as robust in the cold as an Arri 435, but once again, the wide-held notion that RED is a 100%, complete replacement for 35mm film, is, well, wrong.

I do think that the possibility of using the Peltier chip as an internal heater is an interesting notion. The only potential problem is that the chassis was probably designed to cool, not to heat. Ie, the Peltier chip is probably close to the exhaust vents. Simply reversing the polarity and heating it would probably quickly overheat the CMOS, unless the fans were on, in which case, you'd probably end up pulling more cold air over other components on its way to the heater.

Not that its not possible, but it may not be as easy as we want to believe.

 

[JD Holloway]

!
Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go.
.

Agreed. There are always issues with temperature and technology. Good ACs have workarounds or equipment to help aid.

Several have been mentioned....
Fan speed selection, vent closure/blockage, Hot Shots.

Others proposed...
Custom fab. heat covers., new internal heaters etc.

And ways of monitoring...
Idiot light, thermal gauge, sticking your trainees tongue to the aluminium body..

Hopefully we can make this work. If you own a camera currently, be a tester. Find out if/when your camera fails and report back and technique used to test it. Hopefully Red will have some answers if we generate repeatable numbers.

 

[jbeale]

Red isn't rentable? Wait a minute... I'm pretty sure I have seen mention on this very board of more than one Red having been rented already... was I mistaken? I've heard the Genesis doesn't work in cold weather either, are those ever rented?

(Update: Finner reports the Genesis works at -35 C, so my info was wrong.)

If you mean, "rented by people who assume it is precisely like a film camera (or XXX other camera) in every respect" (and won't listen when told otherwise) then I'd agree, it is not rentable.

What I've always been told is the difference between 0 C "commercial" and -40 "industrial" chips is testing. Meaning there is only one chip manufacturing line, but one group of chips is actually tested at cold (takes time = $$) and the rest are not. If most or all Reds have cold-temp issues, then I'd guess the problem may not be chips, it's more likely various other components.

For example, some high-value ceramic capacitors are especially troublesome when cold. A capacitor with Z5U dielectric is spec'd to loose over half its value even at +10 C. A Z5V cap may go down by 85% at -10 C. (Designers aiming for a -30 C spec would never use those parts, of course, that is just an example.)

I have no idea what Red's development process is like. At the last company where I worked in electronic circuit design, we always got the product working on the bench as a first step. Then we put it in the temperature chambers and found out what went wrong over temp. (usually just a few things needed to change). It's actually more complicated because you are dealing with probabilities. It is very expensive to make SURE that all product will work at -30 C, for example, but it is much easier to make it VERY LIKELY to work.

After that, we did the damp-heat lifetime test with the chamber at 85 C, 85% RH to find out what happens long-term, and we discovered some more issues to address. All this took time of course. We wouldn't have done the expensive 85-85 test if the customer hadn't required it.

I think, perhaps, Red is currently at step one only.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The Fairbanks solution

The Fairbanks solution

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

 

[Sean R.]

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

that was pretty lame...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

[TWEEEEET]
*Blatant hitting on a Red employee, that's a loss of 2 'Red Internal Favor' points for you!

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Ok, maybe this is a dumb idea, but kind of like the breakout box that sits on the sides, couldn't a plate (kind of like the beachtek DXA-6 XLR audio device) sit underneath the red between the tripod plate and the camera (this could be ared accessory, because it would sell to a lot of people here who shoot in colder temps than my freezer can do). Essentially, it would be a heater that covered the vents and it would push out warm air that would circulate through the existing vent holes and it would have a temperature guage in it so that if the recirculating air got to warm, it would stop warming the air until it cooled down again.

So if I wasn't clear, it would be a plate the width and length of the camera and it would have a fan and a heating element in it that would be used to recirculate warm air through the vent holes of the camera. It could also have a temp guage on it to show what the current air temp was that was flowing through the camera. The device would be powered from the aux. power out on the camera.

 

[Dalibor Fencl]

I didn't get this issue. I've always heard electronics works better in lower temperatures. Especially the sensors that tend to be hot therefore more noisy.
Absolute zero temperature = no noise at all.

 

[Finner]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help.
Jim

Hi Jim

I have shot extensively with sony 900/950 versions, verri cams and other panasonic cameras (heck even the cheap HVX), genisis and vipers all in conditions below -35c at times. No problems booting up or recording. So maybe the manuals say 0c but they still work at extreme cold. Heck I have no problem if red rates the camera at 0c but it still works at -35c to -40c like the others do.

I totally understand if we need to do a warmer work around plan with the red camera like you mention (cover, hot packs...) but if that is the case a gauge is a must. It seems like the camera is overly sensitive to cool or warm weather and has dificulties if not operating within those limits. Haakon has brought up on the red square thread problems he has had in slightly warm weather. I see the first step in being able to keep the camera reliable would be a precise wide calibrated temperature gauge that apears in the EVF, LCD and HD outputs(for display on cranes, rusian arms...). This way the camera team can judge how the camera is doing and prevent major problems before they happen.

By the way Haakons overheating problem sounds like it may be an isolated issue with his camera, that or just a good cold weather performer! Either way we all are aware that heat can also be an issue so a temperature gauge is really needed.

You and your red team have overcome and improved on many issues since first releasing the camera and I have total confidence that these problems will also be fixed. I look forward to future information on reds repair and solutions to this issue.

I've heard the Genesis doesn't work in cold weather either, are those ever rented?

Sorry you got bad information. Read above.

 

[Zach Hilton]

Ok, maybe this is a dumb idea, but kind of like the breakout box that sits on the sides, couldn't a plate (kind of like the beachtek DXA-6 XLR audio device) sit underneath the red between the tripod plate and the camera (this could be ared accessory, because it would sell to a lot of people here who shoot in colder temps than my freezer can do). Essentially, it would be a heater that covered the vents and it would push out warm air that would circulate through the existing vent holes and it would have a temperature guage in it so that if the recirculating air got to warm, it would stop warming the air until it cooled down again.

So if I wasn't clear, it would be a plate the width and length of the camera and it would have a fan and a heating element in it that would be used to recirculate warm air through the vent holes of the camera. It could also have a temp guage on it to show what the current air temp was that was flowing through the camera. The device would be powered from the aux. power out on the camera.

Possibly. My only concern is I wouldn't want it raising the center of gravity too much, which shouldn't be too hard to do since essentially it's just a small plate/cover with small electronic components. That would be interesting, and better than having to heat it up by other means.

 

[Todd Anderson]

If the Chihuahua has the sweater on, couldn't he just rub his paws all over the Camera until it gets up to working temperature? What else do you have the Chihuahua on the set for?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

 

[Rick Darge]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

a red pro??? What the hell am I paying $35k for?! A fischer price toy?

 

[Zach Hilton]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

Well, as Jim said, "to expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help." They may seem like band-aid solutions, but it is a fact of the techmology. Excessive heat or cold aren't the best conditions for electronics. I'd much rather be in the sweet spot of operating temperatures 99% of the time than try and fit into every unique and special condition that a simple "band-aid" solution would solve anyway.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

a red pro??? What the hell am I paying $35k for?! A fischer price toy?

If there were compromises made to enable the Red body to be sold for $17,500 I am suggesting that users with more critical requirements could be offered a more robust unit at a premium.

$17.5K is nothing to a rental house. That's what an Arriflex mag or videotap costs. If people are happy shutting down their shoots to coddle the camera, let them. If others need absolutely reliability, they could pay for it. Their seems to be a very two-tiered community here on the message board between indie/low-budget users and those with high-end needs, why not build a camera for each of us?

Maybe it will eventually be a non-issue, but at least we have the people at Red thinking about the problem.

 

[fightordie]

What film cameras don't need to be heated? All pro 35mm cameras have heated barneys for cold weather and they are used when they shoot in the cold weather. And more specifically certain cameras have different gearing oil put in the cameras if they are to be taken to cold environments. No camera is free of this issue so why should RED be. Someone will make a heated blimp for the red and that will be the solution.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have shot extensively with sony 900/950 versions, verri cams and other panasonic cameras (heck even the cheap HVX), genisis and vipers all in conditions below -35c at times. No problems booting up or recording. So maybe the manuals say 0c but they still work at extreme cold. Heck I have no problem if red rates the camera at 0c but it still works at -35c to -40c like the others do.

Sony says down to 0C in their specs. Sony support contracts (around here anyway) will gurantee and support down to -30C / -22F.

I've used Varicam at -20F at night, cold started it at -20F. I've used HVX200 extensively down to -25F. My Cartoni Focus head froze and failed at -22F or so, but the HVX200 still kept on ticking doing a timelapse sunrise.