Cold shooting...

[sander kamp]

Is it known why the camera doesn't start up when it is too cold? Any particular component that needs to be warm?

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The problem mostly is not the cold, you can preserve cameras and lenses from that, the problem is the difference between warm and cold, the condensation, first you get condensing water on lens or electronic, then you get foggy lenses and then iced waterdrops. So, my advice is: keep the camera always at the same temperature, let's say arround 0 as Jim mentioned, that should work quiet well.

 

[dalemccready]

will the double pot method of boiling cameras come in handy here?

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

On the paper, yes.
But as many people stated, they will boot and work fine even under much much colder conditions.
I used a JVC HDV camera in the cold siberian winter (-30°C at least), shooting outside for hours without any real protection, at it worked flawlessly. Didn't have a single drop... Booted fine. At the beginning I had a protection for the camera, but it was really unpractical. I soon found out it worked fine without it, so I just removed it.
From what I read here it's the same for the bigger Sony cameras.

So what's different with Red ? There is no tape, so much less moving parts, CF doesn't seem to be the issue as it seems to work better in the cold (see other thread). So what's the component that doesn't like cold ?

Maybe someone could make a small and lightweight heating device that would plug into the air vents and blow hot air directly into the camera body to heat it up quickly ?

Come on, with all the clever guys working at Red, don't tell us you can't improve that...:weight_lift:

 

[Oliver Koeppel]

For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE.

Jim

I would prefer the Chihuahua red action pack, branded and if available: can I have it in 4k?????????

 

[Oliver Koeppel]

but being seriously. Did I get something wrong or didn´t you use a peltier for cooling down cmos?
reverse polarity on peltier and you will have an red integrated heater.

Is there any other camera in the world you can use to warm up your Chihuahua?

 

[Paul Leeming]

Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim

Killer has always liked you.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Nils Ruinet]

but being seriously. Did I get something wrong or didn´t you use a peltier for cooling down cmos?
reverse polarity on peltier and you will have an red integrated heater.

Nice idea. Yes, Jim mentioned using a Peltier device.

From wikipedia :
"Because heating can be achieved more easily and economically by many other methods, Peltier devices are mostly used for cooling. However, when a single device is to be used for both heating and cooling, a Peltier device may be desirable. Simply connecting it to a DC voltage will cause one side to cool, while the other side warms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

So at least in theory this might help...

 

[REDHKSC]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help. Warm it up. Rule of thumb, if you need something to keep you warm, so does RED. Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim

I have seen Human diving in the COLD WATER !!! Why not a Machine ? -5 degree C. It's a Joke to me for now and future !!!

May I say When RED die we are still alive in the Coldest Ice.......

Anyway RED one is a winner over Panasonic 's newest Card based Camcorder ( ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/brochures/B_AJ-HPX3000.pdf ) is just can only handle :

Operating Temperature: 0 °C to 40 °C (32 °F ro 104 °F)
Keeping Temperature: –20 °C to 60 °C (–4 °F ro 140 °F)
Operating Humidity: 10 % to 85 % (relative humidity)
Operating Time: Approx. 120 min., when using DIONIC90 battery

Best regards,

STEWART
HKG / CHINA

 

[Babu Kantamneni]

Working on a solution for this that will be least time consuming on set. I've got some people on it, but it may be that the solution we come up with is similar to what the folks at this company already do. http://www.customupholsteryproducts.com/html/heater_barneys.html

If that's the case, no need to go any further. I just have to see what the people I'm talking with can come up with.

Steve

very interesting website!

 

[Joe Vinson]

Hey Jim, if my reservation on the RED propane stove isn't ready by summer, can I have a 20% discount?

 

[Stephen Williams]

This is pretty practical stuff. If the camera won't boot, it won't display anything. Warm it up until it turns on. Not rocket science. The only comfort is that it performs like all other high-end digital cameras. We aren't alone. For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Many film cameras have built in heaters.

Stephen

 

[Jan Reiff]

don´t worry. i have some amazing beautiful female cameraoperators here, the camera will be get hot automatically when these girls touch it.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help.

Jim, this makes no sense to me. Red has no hard drive and presumably no moving parts other than fans. The electronics in my car 'boot up' just fine at -40C. The film cameras with which Red will be competing work quite well down to -40C also.

I understand that some LCD's don't like the cold and would expect the display on the back of the cammera to be sluggish until the internal heat warms it up, but what else is going on to cause the problems?

Could you explain the technical reasons why cold should be a factor at all with this camera?


My goal is to work with you guys to make this camera bulletproof. Clients won't appreciate me calling them the day before a shoot saying we have to switch cameras because of the weather forecast!

Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go. Saying it's a California-weather-only camera won't cut it. How can I help?

PS: It's -9C outside my window right now.

 

[Michael Brennan]

A couple of observations.
Given the beta nature of RED it is hard to pinpoint a problem when you are on set and with just one camera.

Taking three reds into a walk in freezer and doing some tests for a few hours would be a worthwhile exercise ASAP.
The V2 REDs of course not the betas.

Most video cameras don't have a problem with extreme cold or heat ie -10 to 120 degrees F and SLR cameras also work in extremes.
So it is likely RED will solve the cold issue (if it exists on all cameras) and the heat issue (which does exist on more than one beta cameras).

f900 and XDCAM and Panasonic cameras are hot to the touch at the top of the camera. They have heat sinks and ventilation grilles on the top.

Could a Red owner invert the camera and see if it eliminates overheating?


In an ideal world testing the next batch of RED v2s over 4 more months would be a more complete testing programme that could potentially deliver better than industry standard operation.

I hope RED can wait so that solutions to the heat and bootup issues do not require hardware changes to +1000 cameras.


Mike Brennan

 

[I Bloom]

Good to know Jim, thanks.

How difficult would it be to get the engineers to display the actual current internal temp? That way, at least once you got it up, you could tell you were getting too cold (or too hot on the flip side) and work to compensate (more warm packs, etc.)

Great thinking.

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Last winter I had a Sony HDV camera (tape!) in -25 celsius for hours. The camera was fine, it was the Manfrotto remote that was acting up.

Jochen

 

[Henk van den Doel]

We've used a HDX900 in -10 Celcius and had no trouble at all. I understand there are limits to what can be expected, however certain standards have been set in the past and I guess we expect these standards of future gear as well.

I don't like the thought of insecurity whether the camera will deliver usable files (i.e. non-corrupt ones) if I don't keep the camera up a certain temperature. It's equipment and all equipment can fail at any given moment, however we need the gear to be as reliable as possible. When I have that certain shot on camera and I am positive we recorded it, it should be there when we open it up in post.

Also, I don't see myself running into an animal in harsh conditions, carefully putting down the camera, and asking the beast to sit still for a few more minutes until my camera has defrosted with the heatpacks..

So if possible, improvement would receive a warm welcome here and we appreciate any efforts

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Last winter I had a Sony HDV camera (tape!) in -25 celsius for hours. The camera was fine, it was the Manfrotto remote that was acting up.

Jochen

We just have to reshoot Fassbinders Querelle, and we won't have any heating problems ;-)

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Uh, uuuuh.... I´d be scared to death.......;-)