Client interest for renting or recommending Dragon?

[Bob Gundu]

For arguments sake, and I also actually believe it to be true with Dragon... lets say RED and Alexa footage to be of similar quality. Form factor and weight is going to be a huge factor. We're already seeing Carbon Dragons selling well and being used in ariel photography. Smaller cameras get you into tight places as well as remote locations far easier. Carrying gear in your backpack as you trek with Alexa quality. Slam dunk. I haven't even talked about about 6K resolution yet. Game over. The old dogs in town are not the only ones making movies. It's the new generation of filmmakers that are embracing the new technology. Yes dare I say, the same kids that are learning FCPX today, are the kids that are not comparing digital cameras to what film cameras were. So, in my opinion, Dragon to my eyes looks great, and will give RED the respect it deserves as it levels the playing field. The modularity and +4K is what will separate it from Arri moving forward.

 

[Ted Parkes]

The Epic and soon to be Dragon and the Scarlet for that matter are incredible owner operator cameras. I can't imagine how much work you would have to have to own an Alexa package and keep up with their upgrades. I am fortunate to use my Epic on 90% of all my jobs. Sometimes in tandem with my Pix240 but clients like my reel and are happy with me using the camera that will give them the same quality. Recently I have shot a couple jobs where they were finishing in 1080 but wanted to be able to future proof the project for a potential 4K finish later. Client wasn't aware of how easy that was going to be. Looking forward to my Dragon upgrade.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

For arguments sake, and I also actually believe it to be true with Dragon... lets say RED and Alexa footage to be of similar quality. Form factor and weight is going to be a huge factor. We're already seeing Carbon Dragons selling well and being used in ariel photography. Smaller cameras get you into tight places as well as remote locations far easier. Carrying gear in your backpack as you trek with Alexa quality. Slam dunk. I haven't even talked about about 6K resolution yet. Game over. The old dogs in town are not the only ones making movies. It's the new generation of filmmakers that are embracing the new technology. Yes dare I say, the same kids that are learning FCPX today, are the kids that are not comparing digital cameras to what film cameras were. So, in my opinion, Dragon to my eyes looks great, and will give RED the respect it deserves as it levels the playing field. The modularity and +4K is what will separate it from Arri moving forward.

FCPX is not really designed for revising a complex edit because it does not have multiple video tracks, so versioning is incredibly clunky. It is an "edit once" run and gun oriented tool which is why wedding video guys and people who edit web videos in 20 minutes embrace it but people who aim for more refined and reworked results hate it. It's got nothing to do with age. Young or old, low vs high end is the real decider for FCPX vs "traditional" NLEs.

You may well be the exception and I am not negatively commenting on your work, but this is what I have observed. When I see FCPX in a prodco, I can safely assume that they are all about speed, not really quality.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

We've had this exact conversation before regarding 4K. I think I linked to several white papers and studies that prove otherwise. Audiences in general like the better picture quality. That's a hard truth, it's just better. Not to mention my own R&D on the subject matter. I personally see the difference. I have spoken and shown literally now across the globe about our journey to achieve this "window effect". In 2013 both in London and in LA.

We are trying to break the wall between us and the display medium. It's as simple as that. There's a great deal of things that happen to humans on a psychological level when enjoying entertainment. In terms of observing human expression; micro muscle firings in the cheeks, the subtle quiver of an eyelid, the slow stickiness of lips separating, etc... Much of these things you don't see via 2K/1080p unless you're going in for a CU.

I believed I also referenced the relevance of 4K in regards to S35 and how it's not only been optically worked with, but also the digital scanning and laser recording process. In many ways that brand of 4K has been around for some time. This was the foundation of Red even making cameras. It's important to remember that these were the standards set by the demands of higher end motion picture production. These are digital cinema cameras after all. I find it odd that some desire to go backwards when it took so much to get here. Perhaps it's the localized perspective of the market and career you've had where 1080p became a standard and has been "enough". That's not the industry I come from and I understand that my experience my not be the same as others, but overall the progression of technology follows a very clear path. That's what should be observed. CES is literally next week and you're going to see tremendous amounts of 4K there.

The interesting thing here is we aren't always trying to create "crystal clear" and perfect images. We're still chasing the aesthetic of a motion picture medium. There's still magical chaos in lenses, camera movement, and other things that aren't exactly natural. That's the whole point of a "movie going experience" in reality.

There's really no reason to try and be an anchor when literally the world around you is working very hard to sail to new horizons. Trying to achieve something more. Something greater.

Those words might be lost in the rental perspective or even on myself the next time I'm shooting "canned commercials", however anytime I am truly trying to create I desire to strive for more.

In terms of your points on Dragon. I agree. You can finish at whatever resolution you really want and still receive the benefits of the new technology. These are important advancements and this will show itself to be true once more and more professionals get to see and use the camera.

On your points on viewing distances, actually a good deal of viewers of various forms of entertainment tend to sit in a natural sweet spot that is within the cone of view of the viewer's eyes. There are limitations and comfort related things that come into play when people watch say a movie on a cell phone, but the tunnel vision effect kicks in once focus is achieved. I brought up more than once about comparing PPI to DPI in the print world and that's where the trend is going in reality.

I could go on and on. This is oddly something I've been explaining to people most of my professional career. Imagine how crazy I sounded before 4K cameras or displays existed. Luckily I don't feel as crazy, because a good deal of others want to join me in the madhouse.

Whether TV manufacturers try to hype 4K or not at CES, it remains true that audiences will barely (if at all) be able to tell the difference (there are endless studies proving this) and that honestly few programmers/gatekeepers or audiences will hold a 2K finish uprezzed to 4K, if it looks great in other ways, against you. WHo walked away from the last James Bond complaining about low resolution? I;m not saying audiences don't think visuals are important, they do, but resolution they can barely see is I would guess very low on their priorities.

It's not about being an anchor - it's about choosing relevant things to focus on that matter to people.

I say this because super high res is a weak sell to most producers, and maybe not the best way to promote Dragon. They just think "data clog" and "half my machines won't be able to handle it, and I can't afford to upgrade nor do I want the heachache".

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

FCPX is not really designed for revising a complex edit because it does not have multiple video tracks, so versioning is incredibly clunky. It is an "edit once" run and gun oriented tool which is why wedding video guys and people who edit web videos in 20 minutes embrace it but people who aim for more refined and reworked results hate it. It's got nothing to do with age. Young or old, low vs high end is the real decider for FCPX vs "traditional" NLEs.

Amen, I've been trying to tell people that for some time now. I'd kill for FCP8.

 

[Wes Howell]

I swung by the local Best Buy last week thinking I'd do my due diligence and look at the newer 4k displays.
I really wasn't expecting much.

Looking at the 55 to 60" displays from 5 feet away was amazing. It blew my mind.
It felt like a bigger jump from SD to HD to me. I know that point is arguable - but looking at the new displays with detailed 4k content felt like I was looking out the window - for the first time.

The sample content was stunning. The new displays are very nice as well offering great color and contrast.
There will always be those that value the best imagery and that can't help but be a good thing for RED owners.

I can't wait to show my footage on a 4k display. It will look noticeably better than my current 1080p plasma.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I swung by the local Best Buy last week thinking I'd do my due diligence and look at the newer 4k displays.
I really wasn't expecting much.

Looking at the 55 to 60" displays from 5 feet away was amazing. It blew my mind.
It felt like a bigger jump from SD to HD to me. I know that point is arguable - but looking at the new displays with detailed 4k content felt like I was looking out the window - for the first time.

The sample content was stunning. The new displays are very nice as well offering great color and contrast.
There will always be those that value the best imagery and that can't help but be a good thing for RED owners.

I can't wait to show my footage on a 4k display. It will look noticeably better than my current 1080p plasma.

A 60 inch screen for 5 feet away is not a normal viewing distance that allows you to watch fiction comfortably without getting dizzy and a sore neck. Almost no one sits that close to a screen that big.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

FCPX is not really designed for revising a complex edit because it does not have multiple video tracks, so versioning is incredibly clunky. It is an "edit once" run and gun oriented tool which is why wedding video guys and people who edit web videos in 20 minutes embrace it but people who aim for more refined and reworked results hate it. It's got nothing to do with age. Young or old, low vs high end is the real decider for FCPX vs "traditional" NLEs.

You may well be the exception and I am not negatively commenting on your work, but this is what I have observed. When I see FCPX in a prodco, I can safely assume that they are all about speed, not really quality.

Here's the thing though, as someone who primarily cuts on Avid and FCP 7. FCP 7 will eventually not work on new machines. Avid has been in some financial trouble, so hopefully they weather the storm and survive - but if they don't? Adobe has made huge progress with Premiere but their subscription policy may not work for everyone. Then there is FCP X which has been evolving from it's initial WTF reaction to a tool that a lot of people are learning to use effectively to get their projects done. My years of working a certain way in NLEs has made it difficult for me to jump in full force but there are some very interesting things about it. Also some things that may not be for everyone. I will say that FCP was not exactly welcomed with open arms in the early days. I would hear countless editors tell me how much of a joke it was. We all know how that turned out. Walter Murch used it and then all of a sudden it was legit. Same could happen with FCP X. Get enough seasoned editors on board, continue refining it, and eventually it could end up being a great tool. Again, not for everyone but if FCP 7 and Avid die that will be an interesting moment. Maybe people will keep editing on their older machines.

Saying it's only for wedding videos or web guys is misleading because it's already being used in Broadcast TV shows.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

For example: http://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/in-action/electric/

 

[Wes Howell]

A 60 inch screen for 5 feet away is not a normal viewing distance that allows you to watch fiction comfortably without getting dizzy and a sore neck. Almost no one sits that close to a screen that big.

It was 55 and I was probably 7 feet away. A bit close but I definitely didn't get dizzy. It was less immersive than Imax.
Even 10 feet away looked awesome. Huge improvement. I've seen 4k that didn't blow me away. I get the whole ideal viewing distance thing.
Just saying that I expected less. Check out the new 4k displays with proper content and you might be surprised. It was a good surprise for me.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Its interesting how I can mention FCPX and the discussion takes a huge turn. I worked at Alias Wavefront for 6 years working on Maya. It was a total mind shift from Power Animator and Alias discontinued that product and had to transition people to Maya. I was on that team to help people transition over to the new way of doing the same thing. I feel FCPX is going through the same thing. My point I was making was not about what NLE you should be using, it was about adapting. Look at the acceleration of development happing over at Apple with software and hardware. It's not going to stop today... what do you think it's going to look like in 5 years? RED was the radical underdog too remember? Anyhow back to the discussion on how to convince a client to use Dragon. To each his own, but my clients don't even have a clue what I use. I shoot with gear that gets me the results I want and the clients hire me for what I bring to the table. They happen to like that I deliver pretty images on budget and on time. Plus they like hanging out with me. For that they will pay.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Here's the thing though, as someone who primarily cuts on Avid and FCP 7. FCP 7 will eventually not work on new machines. Avid has been in some financial trouble, so hopefully they weather the storm and survive - but if they don't? Adobe has made huge progress with Premiere but their subscription policy may not work for everyone. Then there is FCP X which has been evolving from it's initial WTF reaction to a tool that a lot of people are learning to use effectively to get their projects done. My years of working a certain way in NLEs has made it difficult for me to jump in full force but there are some very interesting things about it. Also some things that may not be for everyone. I will say that FCP was not exactly welcomed with open arms in the early days. I would hear countless editors tell me how much of a joke it was. We all know how that turned out. Walter Murch used it and then all of a sudden it was legit. Same could happen with FCP X. Get enough seasoned editors on board, continue refining it, and eventually it could end up being a great tool. Again, not for everyone but if FCP 7 and Avid die that will be an interesting moment. Maybe people will keep editing on their older machines.

Saying it's only for wedding videos or web guys is misleading because it's already being used in Broadcast TV shows.

I have to imagine Avid is doing better than ever before. I know in NYC most of the broadcast vendors/networks I'm familiar with have doubled down on Avid. It's made a petty big resurgence over last 1+ year. That said, a couple of more budget shops have invested in Premiere, so I do see that as being the next alternative platform - especially for 4K right now.

 

[shashbugu]

I don't think Avid's problem has anything to do with media composer. It's a big company with many expensive hardware products no one is really buying or upgrading to.
Rental markets are very different depending on where you are and the types of productions you service, and this affects the value of a piece of equipment. Arri is very dominant in many markets or should I say most markets in the various products they offer. The Alexa is simply one of the easiest cameras to use, making your money back is sometimes mostly contingent with renters being able to use the equipment on their own. you will get more DOP's and operator directors going for this in the indie market or for TV commercials. Owner operators of Red equipment find it very hard to both rent the camera and charge for their operator or DP services and end up continuously making deals just to put their equipment to work. This sometimes forces the actual camera rental down to the price of a lower value camera and prolongs the return on investment.
I really think the Alexa vs Red argument has quelled down in many markets, especially since most people and rental houses own both cameras and thanks to Adobe premiere and Resolve both have similar post pipelines. These days I believe your ability to creatively grade and produce light vfx has more value over which camera you own. Budgets are tight and owner operator with a Dragon can't quote as high a price as an epic M was 3 years ago.
Simply put most of us have been Red users for over seven years now, we have a pretty clear understanding of where the market is heading. It's clear that if Arri or panavision do not release a 4k camera this year, the Red Dragon will surely rule the rental market.

 

[M Most]

It's clear that if Arri or panavision do not release a 4k camera this year, the Red Dragon will surely rule the rental market.

1. Arri is very aware of where they need to go and what they need to do. They also happen to enjoy a very dominant position in the television market, and a significant (if not similarly dominant) presence in high end studio features. That is a luxury nobody else has at the moment.

2. Panavision is the world's largest renter of Arri cameras. They are also one of, if not the largest, renters of Sony and, yes, Red. They don't "need" to manufacture any new cameras at this point, although I think it is rather common knowledge that they "might" be working on something that is more of a specialty camera.

3. It seems you're ignoring Sony (and Canon, for that matter) in terms of the professional marketplace. One does that at their own peril.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

FCPX is…

In summary:

• Not designed for quality results
• Clunky
• For wedding videos and webcasts
• A great choice for those seeking low quality

I'm sure many readers are tipping their hat to you for the time they saved not looking into FCPX. Job well done.

 

[dio Zafi]

1. Arri is very aware of where they need to go and what they need to do. They also happen to enjoy a very dominant position in the television market, and a significant (if not similarly dominant) presence in high end studio features. That is a luxury nobody else has at the moment.

2. Panavision is the world's largest renter of Arri cameras. They are also one of, if not the largest, renters of Sony and, yes, Red. They don't "need" to manufacture any new cameras at this point, although I think it is rather common knowledge that they "might" be working on something that is more of a specialty camera.

3. It seems you're ignoring Sony (and Canon, for that matter) in terms of the professional marketplace. One does that at their own peril.

yeap..

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Its interesting how I can mention FCPX and the discussion takes a huge turn. I worked at Alias Wavefront for 6 years working on Maya. It was a total mind shift from Power Animator and Alias discontinued that product and had to transition people to Maya. I was on that team to help people transition over to the new way of doing the same thing. I feel FCPX is going through the same thing. My point I was making was not about what NLE you should be using, it was about adapting. Look at the acceleration of development happing over at Apple with software and hardware. It's not going to stop today... what do you think it's going to look like in 5 years? RED was the radical underdog too remember? Anyhow back to the discussion on how to convince a client to use Dragon. To each his own, but my clients don't even have a clue what I use. I shoot with gear that gets me the results I want and the clients hire me for what I bring to the table. They happen to like that I deliver pretty images on budget and on time. Plus they like hanging out with me. For that they will pay.

Its' not the same thing because Maya offered powerful new possibilities and features. FCPX does not do anything that Premiere and After Effects can't, and if you are only doing a cut edit, which is all many editors do, nothing that any NLE out there can't. So why bother? Cut-editing is not a very technical process, NLEs just need to be transparent and get out of your way, not tell you how you should think.

As for Dragon your clients may not have a clue (most of mine very much do) but either way, again, you're mixing up selling your time with whether it's wise to invest in gear. You can rent gear - including a Dragon from many people in Toronto - and bring that same experience of hanging out as you put it, of passion talent and all the rest that is personal to you to your clients, and charge the same thing to your clients for your time.

Sometimes renting is the smart money choice.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

It was 55 and I was probably 7 feet away. A bit close but I definitely didn't get dizzy. It was less immersive than Imax.
Even 10 feet away looked awesome. Huge improvement. I've seen 4k that didn't blow me away. I get the whole ideal viewing distance thing.
Just saying that I expected less. Check out the new 4k displays with proper content and you might be surprised. It was a good surprise for me.

I'm sure it had good motion and contrast but at 10 feet away from a 60 inch monitor it is simply not humanly possible to discern 1080p from 4K.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

For example: http://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/in-action/electric/

Well, honestly I don't know how they can stand it. Many pro editors agree with me. I'm not old (well under 40) but there's nothing wrong with being experienced and having habits and mental shortcuts that help get the job done. And just because something is new does not mean it is better, certainly not simply because Apple says so.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

1. Arri is very aware of where they need to go and what they need to do. They also happen to enjoy a very dominant position in the television market, and a significant (if not similarly dominant) presence in high end studio features. That is a luxury nobody else has at the moment.

2. Panavision is the world's largest renter of Arri cameras. They are also one of, if not the largest, renters of Sony and, yes, Red. They don't "need" to manufacture any new cameras at this point, although I think it is rather common knowledge that they "might" be working on something that is more of a specialty camera.

3. It seems you're ignoring Sony (and Canon, for that matter) in terms of the professional marketplace. One does that at their own peril.

Maybe but Sony is not a big player here in my world - not to say they don't have some great cams, and I'm not even sure why, and of course that could change.