Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cinetal B-series (10bit) vs 2000-series (8bit)?

Dan Graetz

Dan Graetz

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I'm about to pull the trigger on a Cinetal 24" 2000 series grading monitor (8 bit). Just wondering if any out there can advise on the importance of the panel being 10bit?
As far as I can tell the only difference between the B and 2000 ranges is the bit-depth of the panel. The config I'm looking at comes with cinespace, 3D luts and framestore.

I know there's a lot of talk about 10-bit since the HP Dreamcolor's arrival. I'm sure there's a tangible difference (banding etc.) but not having stood in front of a 10bit panel myself I'm interested to know how crucial it is?

We are a boutique production house with two hi-end RED kits, a 35tb Xsan with Final Cut Server and a couple of 2K FCP suites. I've got an ad-hoc grading room with an overhead 1080p projector (110" screen) and up until now I've been monitoring with a JVC 24" which has never felt right. I grade in Apple Color with an Eclipse console, and the demand for this service is increasing - so I'm looking for quality reference monitoring to complete the equation. In the medium-term I'd like to move to Scratch Finishing so ideally this monitor choice could dovetail into that configuration.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Dan Graetz
www.graetzmedia.com
 
it's sometimes difficult to see on a normal image the difference between 8bit and 10bit. If you really want to see if the panel is 10bit, use a Kona card or other AJA card, and then use the AJA control panel, set in the Control pane a gray ramp. If your display is 8bit, you will probably see small banding in the image. if the display is natively 10bit, you would get a perfect ramp.
Dont use this chart for evaluation 8bit/10bit performance as it is 8bit.

Don't judge the image over a DVI port, as these are 8bit, and even with the Displayport, if its on your display, you wouldnt see on a mac a 10bit image, as the drivers for the Displayport on the mac are not yet 10bit. Also some softwares will add dithering to 10bit images on 8bit displays to make it look better.

we did some testing with the Eizo CG232 grade-1 monitor, and it gives an really smooth 10bit image and very good colors and blacks.
We did also did some tests with the CG243 with the displayport connected to the HDlink Pro displayport version, to get 10bit support, but we didnt get 50hz native playback to work, as the HDlink Pro could not be forced to send out a 25/50hz signal.
 
The problem is of course banding. If you see banding in your image, how do you know it is in the image or it is the display that is causing it? The only way to find out is a 10 bit display.
 
Thanks for the info guys - greatly appreciated.
I think I'll hold out for a 10bit panel.
Nook - would you mind giving me a ballpark price for the B420? From what I understand there isn't a huge price difference between 24" & 42" Cinetal panels?
 
Hi Dan -

I believe my B420 was about a bit less than $20K. I'd recommend Torrey Loomis at Silverado. As you said, the B230 and the B420 are not too distant in their price range as far as I remember.

Good luck,
 
Concur, B- Series is 8-bit and outdated.

If you are not doing film outs and need a grading quality monitor... all the major post houses in LA are using PANNY PRO PLASMAS (the 12 Series is now 10 bit) and kicks serious ass... plus at 58" is way better for finding mistakes than the 42 much less a 24"

and dont get me started on OFF AXIS viewing of LCD's. it sucks.

But they (Plasmas) are limited to 4:2:2 for grading i believe, and you need 4:4:4 for film out, the latter is where the Cinetal excels.

but at that price point, there are many other superior options that were pointed out at last REDUCATION... for years Cinetal was the shit... not so much anymore... they can be janky... quirky.. as remember, there are only a couple screen MFG's Cinetal just adds all kinds of electronics.

Tamusz and eCinema are kicking some major LCD ass at the Cinetal price range
 
Thanks Nook - much appreciated. We've been customers of Torrey's for a while now. Not sure what it's like in South Korea - but in Australia it takes an eternity for local suppliers to pass on currency improvements, yet a mere heartbeat to alter prices when the dollar moves the other way. Always helps to have a good US supplier :)
 
Agreed Dan,

The local dealers can be bitches ;-)

I must point out that I whole-heartedly agree with Tim about the viewing angle of LCD pannels. The B420 has got very narrow viewing angle, but all the LCD's I've tried so far were not different.

The major selling point for the B420 was not only its amazing color accurracy compared to JVC 24" (10bit), TVLogic 24" (10bit), and the Panny 24". Later on, I am going to invest on a B230 to send out to the set. And you just need to check out some reading materials on Cine-tal's website what my two Cinemage LCD's can offer me, a colorist who rents out his Red's. Everything will be in line from the set to my grading suite.

This will set me apart from all other rental houses and grading facilities. or I hope :-)

Cheers,
 
Thanks for weighing in Tim. I've been eyeing off the Pannys for a while but as my current grading setup is 2 x 30" GUI displays and 24" reference all on hydraulic arms - I was hoping to replace the 24" with something that could work on the same support. Might be time to reconfigure things and use the Panny instead of the overhead Optoma 1080p projector.
I've heard some talk of ways to calibrate the Pannys - do you have any recommendations on what colorimeter/software to use?

Nook, you make an interesting point on the set-to-studio consistency. We run a wet-hire service with our two REDs and I'm thinking of expanding that service to include a REDRocket onset review system. The right choice of monitoring now could really make that credible.
 
Yes, Dan.

The ability to grab stills right on the field monitor is great to send them to the grading suite offsite. Create a lut send back to the field to load it onto the field monitor. Now that can't be bad :-)
 
Good morning everyone,
I typically only monitor RedUser but have decided to post on this thread. There are some items that need clarification about Cine-tal and the value proposition we bring to the market. Cine-tal's expertise is in color science and color processing for motion picture, television and video. Our technology is used in production, post production, distribution and exhibition. We are display system agnostic. This means that we are indifferent to the technology behind the display system (LCD, Plasma, DLP, whatever comes next) Our focus is in the measurement, control and user perception of the image. Yes we produce a line of monitors called Cinemage that use LCDs. We also have a display processor called DAVIO that many people use as a controller in front of Plasma and DLP technology for Gamut, Gamma, and saturation and white point. Our color management software, cineSpace, is the most pervasive color management software tool in the industry. Our technology is used inside many other hardware and software products that do not bear our name.

We are in for at least another 5-10 years of disruptive display technology advancements. Soon we will look at our antiquated adherance to rec709 like we look at standard definition today. Cine-tal will continue to provide technology that solves the ongoing disruptive display issues we face today.

Sorry for the soapbox. One final note the Cinemage B-Series is a 10 bit panel.

Highest regards to each of you and please come see us at NAB SL4514.

Robert Carroll
President
Cine-tal Systems, Inc.

p.s. here are some reference links for you on the topics considered in this thread:
http://cine-tal.com/Training%20Videos/cal.plasma.wmv - A review of plasma calibration.
http://cine-tal.com/trainingsupport/whitepapers/LED_vs_CCFL_white_paper.pdf - discussion of CCFL vs LED backlights.
 
Last edited:
Robert Carroll said:
Good morning everyone,
I typically only monitor RedUser but have decided to post on this thread. There are some items that need clarification about Cine-tal and the value proposition we bring to the market. Cine-tal's expertise is in color science and color processing for motion picture, television and video. Our technology is used in production, post production, distribution and exhibition. We are display system agnostic. This means that we are indifferent to the technology behind the display system (LCD, Plasma, DLP, whatever comes next) Our focus is in the measurement, control and user perception of the image. Yes we produce a line of monitors called Cinemage that use LCDs. We also have a display processor called DAVIO that many people use as a controller in front of Plasma and DLP technology for Gamut, Gamma, and saturation and white point. Our color management software, cineSpace, is the most pervasive color management software tool in the industry. Our technology is used inside many other hardware and software products that do not bear our name.

We are in for at least another 5-10 years of disruptive display technology advancements. Soon we will look at our antiquated adherance to rec709 like we look at standard definition today. Cine-tal will continue to provide technology that solves the ongoing disruptive display issues we face today.

Sorry for the soapbox. One final note the Cinemage B-Series is a 10 bit panel.

Highest regards to each of you and please come see us at NAB SL4514.

Robert Carroll
President
Cine-tal Systems, Inc.

p.s. here are some reference links for you on the topics considered in this thread:
http://cine-tal.com/Training%20Videos/cal.plasma.wmv - A review of plasma calibration.
http://cine-tal.com/trainingsupport/whitepapers/LED vs CCFL white paper.pdf - discussion of CCFL vs LED backlights.
Click to expand...


I heard from a fellow post super that the Cine-Tal monitors were built on Windows 2000, and were subject to crashing from time to time. Is this true?
 
It's been about nine months since we started using the B420, and I haven't experienced a single crash, which is a very good thing. What scared me most though when I was reading through the manual in the begining was that It says if it crashes during a firmware update, they suggest I send the unit back for a repair. Luckly, it didn't crash when I did the firmware update once. I live far far away from Indianapolis.
 
I own the Cinetal 24" 2000 series with almost all the sweet options enabled. Had it for 8mo's no problems and tech support is great cuz their a U.S. company. Dead on great monitor and company. Thinking of picking up a cinetal Davio to feed my plasma.

pointblankBANNER.gif


http://thecoloringroom.com/reddailies.html
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top