Cinema camera or Video camera?

[Jesse Rosten]

That's next week...

Actually, this clipped highlight thing is the single biggest issue facing RED ONE users. If it was all about the camera, that would be one thing. But so much footage is "reduced in quality" during grading that it deserves most of our attention. Again, it is the primary benefit of Build 16.

Jim

Maybe some more in-depth Redcine tutorials are in order? It'd be great to see examples of what not to do....and how to squeeze the best image out in Redcine. Remember, you guys are changing the rules when it comes to digital cinema. It'd be great if you'd also supply us with a rule book

 

[Mark Thorpe]

did you mean over expose? I'm not sure i understand.

This is what I am a bit fuddled with too at the moment. I hear people using the term "Shooting to the Right" I always took that as being a direct reference to the histogram which would then tend for the image to be slightly over exposed. On the other hand I was not sure if they were talking about an RGB histogram or one indicative of exposure, same thing in a way I guess.

Anyone care to clear that up?

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Even though my system was delivered a long while ago I haven't actually touched it yet. The unwrapping ceremony happens next week in San Diego. Looking forward to that.

 

[Jannard]

did you mean over expose? I'm not sure i understand.

Sorry... I did mean over-expose. I got twisted up in the double negative RAW thing and a short attention span.

Jim

 

[Dominic Cochran]

There are a few ways to make your RED ONE look like it has 7 stops of dynamic range... two primary ways.

1. Over-expose. Just clip the highlights while you record and there won't be any need to screw up anything in grading. This is the easiest way to turn a Digital Cinema Camera into an ordinary looking video camera (although you will still have more resolution).

2. Grade it improperly. Use ISO or exposure to set the mid-grey (or make most of the image look right) in RED Alert!, REDCINE, Scratch or Final Cut... without any regard for the histogram. Let the highlights go because the "middle of the image looks right". Don't use a curve to pull up the middle because that would hold the highlight you wish to blow out. Clipping is an art. If you can get really good at it, you may also learn what not to do "just in case you want the full info for a specialty shot".

As has been pointed out, the RED ONE does not have as much DNR as film. While most people think it is plenty to work with... it certainly does not if you throw away info.

Here's some good news. We are here to help. Build 16 makes it MUCH more difficult to miss exposure. And REDspace does a great job of helping to see your image without tempting you to make grading errors.

There are some of you that are saying "I don't do that. I know exactly what to do and how to get the most DNR with my RED ONE". OK, then. I'm not talking to you.

Here is an example of how to get an image to clip with one grading button.

I know... this grab is not that sharp. That isn't the point here...

Jim

I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate here but don't you think it would be more constructive to make a post saying: "How to make your Red look like it has 11 stops of Dynamic Range," and not telling us all what what NOT to do?

Personally, my company has always done better by ignoring the naysayers rather than acknowledging them. It just seems more clear as well.

 

[jbeale]

Actually, the way Jim wrote it is more memorable, for me.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

With film, the tendency is to under expose a negative to keep the shadows from blocking. RED RAW footage is exactly the opposite... which I'm sure has contributed to some difficulties.

OK this means:
When you shoot film you usually rate the film stock at a lower ISO rate so you slightly over-expose it with the intent to keep the shadows from blocking.

When shoot Digital RAW you usually rate the chip at a higher ISO rate (RED is rated at 320 but you shoot it at higher ISO; someone says 500) so you under-expose your footage with the intent to keep the highlights from clipping.


Right?

 

[Dominic Cochran]

Actually, the way Jim wrote it is more memorable, for me.

Sarcasm is definitely more memorable, but rarely useful.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

did you mean over expose? I'm not sure i understand.

I hear people using the term "Shooting to the Right" I always took that as being a direct reference to the histogram which would then tend for the image to be slightly over exposed.

No never over-expose a shot
Always try to keep your histogram as much to the right as possible withough clipping the highlights.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks Michele, maybe I was just looking out at the world from the Histograms POV !!

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

One of the first things I noticed about Red Cine was how something like improper use of the ISO settings could permanently clip highlights (assuming you exported the file with those settings, the RAW data is fine).

I've also noticed this type of thing in FCP's Color. If you clip a highlight in the Primary in Room, you can't "resurrect" that highlight in the Primary Out room. I personally find that very annoying, as it makes the grading process more cumbersome. I don't have that issue grading in other programs like After Effects. I don't remember if Avid Adrenaline had this issue...

 

[Jan Reiff]

there is a lot of clipped 35mm footage out there, in commercials, features...

i am not worried about that with red. my philosophy always was to set a detailed light plan and not to shoot "guerilla" stuff. and to direct the grading in the post to avoid it (there are many operators that put too much contrast in the images IMO) i never had issues with clipped areas in 35mm, and i will never have it with the red footage.

in case of Steven Soderbergh (i don´t like the short "SS", not a short thing we like here you know) it´s maybe caused by a very closely time-table of shooting, 4:30 feature is a long way...

 

[D Namir]

Do you mean I have to actually use the camera properly? that's crazy! :blink:

I've thought for a long time there is a need for a special DVD on how to properly use the camera. It should go out with every unit.

I've thought for a long time there is a need for a special DVD on how to properly use the camera. It should go out with every unit.[/QUOTE]

When I, a few days ago, after unboxing my new Reds, wrote on this forum that I find it strange that there is no manual, reference guide, quick starting guide, not even a piece of paper which say something "... you have just bought the most innovative camera..." etc. there were responses like "... what do we need it for..", "... it keeps changing anyway..." etc.
I find it too out of normal that a company deliver a camera with accessories just like that in boxes and the only written words about it was for the Red power Packs.
I think red is doing something wrong that maybe very painfull and costly in the future. There are ways of doing things.
i am still learning the camera and i already have a list of things that are not properly made if you think about this camera as something to work with for the next few years.
If the concept of Red, for the Red One camera, was to manufacture a tool that will be good for the next 12-24 months then this is something else.
Look at Arri, I don't see any panic there because of the Red versus the D-20 and D-21, because they were making cameras for some hundreds years and they are thinking long term. "So", they say, "now we have a new player in the field, which threatening our hegemony but what counts is what will be in five, ten, and twenty years from now".
Red it is not too late, you can still correct some mistakes which will pay off in the long run.

 

[Red Istanbul]

hey

I think RED ONE should be delivered with a set of DVDs that gives a detailed information about getting most out of the camera. It would be cool to see some professional DP's explaining how to deal with different situations or an editor expaining the details workflow.

best regards

 

[Clint Johnson]

Hi gdv... didn't anyone point out that the most up to date manual is available on the Red SUPPORT page? It is zipped in with the Camera Firmware download- which you should have on your SD card just in case you need to re-install the build anyway.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Build 16 makes it MUCH more difficult to miss exposure.

"Highlight protector" built in, with three levels:

1. RedTold'ya mode - text and sound message "Burning!" in the camera and another message in RedCine : "Told 'ya!"
2. RedSlap mode- when highlights cross the limit hand comes out from inside the camera and gently warns the camera operator of reduced picture quality, by leaving a subtle red mark and pulsating feeling on the camera operator's face.
3. RedZapper mode - gently sends higher amounts of electricity into the hand which opens the iris too much


excerpt from a press release:

"Lake Forrest, CA - We have tested our new "Highlight protector" feature with great results. Our three levels of protection are extremely versatile and adaptable to various types of negligence. The system is programmed to automatically switch modes measuring the amount of mistakes made in a specified timeframe. That way each user gets the appropriate attention and guidance and learns to avoid future mistakes much faster than with usual solutions. "

 

[Jan Reiff]

sound with acoustic guitar please and deep voice

"and it burns burns burns..."

 

[Denis Buhot]

I sure don't want to pose as an expert - I'm not, by far - but doesn't all this seem very usual, familiar stuff to any one who's got used to a digital still pro camera and made the effort to understand what iso rating and histograms are ! Is'nt the Red one an incredibly fast recording still camera, in some sense ? How to expose "digitally" and use a histogram not to clip the highlights is all over the internet, I had thought... And good movies with clipped whites, terrible grain and dead blacks are all over the theaters, with nobody suggesting Spielberg should pay more attention to the cameras he uses, nor change DP for a competent one...

Jim and the Red team are being very patient, at times.

Indeed, the technical side - not to say the fuss - seems a bit "over exposed" to me here... Especially when, lacking a sleep mode, I shall not be given a chance to clip any highlights nor kill any blacks in the very shot I just couldn't shoot because of power shortage *

However, who ever came to think Red one would make basic attention, lighting, filters, etc. dispensable ?... I thought I'd heard of a mattebox ? Whoever happened to shoot under forest cover at noon, not to say in the jungle...- should know the contrast is not an easy one to deal with if you don't want the extra hassle of proper lighting and just need the image to reflect the raw reality of what jungle had to be for the Che near la Higuera... I don't mean to be sarcastic nor go emotional, but blacks had to be very black, and whites awfully clipped, when he was lying wounded in his dark cell, and the door opened to the man who came to shoot him. And the sudden light must have blinded him for a while, and the bullets from that machine gun must have "lacked some detail", indeed... Maybe SS didn't care to much of a clean, soft and perfectly exposed image here, who knows... I wouldn't, for sure.

To me, what counts is that the red one is able to record a superb image in almost any conditions, at an affordable price, provided you don't expect to be just pressing the record button. What may seem boring to "spoilt" people in the 35mm film industry do look an incredible opportunity to people who ever dealt with any middle or even supposedly high end video camera.

Well, people like me still badly need a sleep-mode, but that's another story, and I don't want to put more strain on Jim's nerve...

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I just want access to the full sensor data that the camera promises. 12bits = max 12stops. 10bits = max 10stops.

And you get it! Your statement above is false in this context. As soon as the data is put in a non-linear form, you can encode > 12stops in a 10bit container. Just like scanning a film neg to 10bit dpx doesn't suddenly give you only 10 stops to work with.

If you don't want to mess with curves, use 16bit tiff output and linear light. Nobody is stopping you. However, unless you really know what you're doing, at least do white balance with our tools.

Graeme

 

[Brian Langeman]

I understand what Graeme is saying, and it really makes a lot of sense. I think you can output 16bit tiffs and you'll get what you're looking for with the 12bit sensor data coded linearly, because I don't think there are any 12bit standard formats.

But IF you have the ability to work with log files until your final output, even if you're not doing a film out, then that is the most efficient way to work. You save a lot of disk space, and also consequently rendering time, when working with 10bit files as opposed to 12bit or especially 16bit. You still have all of the dynamic range from the sensor, it's just coded differently, because basically too much data from the linear file is given to the highlights which is wasted because you will NEVER see a change from code values 4024 to 4025 even while grading. Converting it into a log file takes some of the info away from the highlights (which you will NEVER see anyways) and gives some more to the shadows, which is needed).

I recommend the book "Digital Compositing for Film and Video". Although a lot of you probably aren't compositors, the last few chapters describes this subject the best that I've seen so far.

Basically, you can work with 16bit tiffs if you want, but that's wasting a lot of disk space.

 

[conrad gaunt]

And you get it! Your statement above is false in this context. As soon as the data is put in a non-linear form, you can encode > 12stops in a 10bit container. Just like scanning a film neg to 10bit dpx doesn't suddenly give you only 10 stops to work with.

If you don't want to mess with curves, use 16bit tiff output and linear light. Nobody is stopping you. However, unless you really know what you're doing, at least do white balance with our tools.

Graeme

My concern is that, yes, values in the log code can cover the range that 12bit does (because its non linear, same DR roughly), but I`d still rather have 4096 code values going out of RC as apposed to 1024. Also, I don`t intend to scan any film, thats why I`m buying a 12bit digital cine camera, thanks to you Red guys, and your hard work. I won`t thank you too much because I know your having fun too
If the tiff output does get you the full sensor range, thats great, I didn`t know, and I will go down the tiff route. I will white balance with your tools when RC starts working for me, but I am developing freeware that has histograms and "stuff", just like the camera does, so not always. I only get to play with other peoples dpx posts at present. As for curves, I`ll be using them a lot, just not on the log data.