CineGrain & Gorilla Grain.

[Stefan Antonescu]

Hi everybody,

I have been looking for some nice grain and have come across these two :

1. CineGrain (More expensive) :
http://cinegrain.com/

2. Gorilla Grain (Less expensive) :
http://gorillagrain.com/

Both use 35mm film scans.

Could you share your experience with these two ? Is there any other option out there ?

Thanks.

 

[Gary Schiff]

CineGrain is industry standard and offers a ton more, they're more expensive, but it's well worth it for what you get. They invented the scene and are used by tons of the big pros.

 

[Jason Svatos]

Gorilla Grain's overall branding looks suspiciously like CineGrain's. Hmm.

That said, I would go with CineGrain based on what little, but extremely helpful and welcoming, experience I've had with them. Honestly not bad for the price.

 

[Stefan Antonescu]

I wonder how CineGrain can be both Mac and PC - I'm only seeing ProRes...

 

[Matt W.]

Lots of new options now, anyone have any opinions on what is best (and cheap)?

What did they use on Mad Men?

 

[Marc Wielage]

I can't recall seeing any film grain in Mad Men over the last season, since they switched to Alexa. Generally in TV, there's no time to render out stuff with film grain applied because the turnaround times are too fast. With low-pressure scheduals (and lots of money), it can be done with no problem.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I wonder how CineGrain can be both Mac and PC - I'm only seeing ProRes...

You can get ProRes on PC as well, it's read only but for some grain packs you only need read only.

 

[Michael Romano]

ProRes can be just fine on any platform that supports playback. You can convert them into anything as well. I would also venture that madmen just liked the ALEXA without grain treatment as is. There is enough time to add grain but when adding - the temptation is great to go to far. I think they either do it so lightly it's imperceptible or not at all. remember, for a great many years we tried to make grain sizes as small as possible and it was thought of as a problem to be grainy. Funny how that's turned on its head!

 

[Marc Wielage]

I agree with Michael above. I think grain works in very, very small doses as a technique, not something you'd embed in an entire feature. There's too great a temptation to go too far.

Here's a list of companies that offer grain samples and film effects, some real, some computer-generated:

http://www.fxphd.com/store/scratch-fx-by-warren-eagles/
http://www.grainzilla.com
http://www.holygrain.com
http://cinegrain.com/
http://www.vision-color.com
http://gorillagrain.com/
http://www.rgrain.com/
http://www.crumplepop.com/
http://www.filmconvert.com/
http://imagenomic.com/rg.aspx
http://cinnafilm.com/dark-energy/dark-energy-professional/
http://www.filmwash.com/shop/

Each has pros and cons, particularly on cost and selection. I think Cinegrain is the best overall, but it's also very pricey. Rgrain -- being "simulated" grain -- is inexpensive, but surprisingly effective. I would caution against people using a "film grain texture" effect with lots of dirt and damage, because it's hard to watch over a period of time, unless it's for a quick flashback or a short.

 

[Matt W.]

I agree with Michael above. I think grain works in very, very small doses as a technique, not something you'd embed in an entire feature. There's too great a temptation to go too far.

Here's a list of companies that offer grain samples and film effects, some real, some computer-generated:

http://www.fxphd.com/store/scratch-fx-by-warren-eagles/
http://www.grainzilla.com
http://www.holygrain.com
http://cinegrain.com/
http://www.vision-color.com
http://gorillagrain.com/
http://www.rgrain.com/
http://www.crumplepop.com/
http://www.filmconvert.com/
http://imagenomic.com/rg.aspx
http://cinnafilm.com/dark-energy/dark-energy-professional/
http://www.filmwash.com/shop/

Each has pros and cons, particularly on cost and selection. I think Cinegrain is the best overall, but it's also very pricey. Rgrain -- being "simulated" grain -- is inexpensive, but surprisingly effective. I would caution against people using a "film grain texture" effect with lots of dirt and damage, because it's hard to watch over a period of time, unless it's for a quick flashback or a short.

I'm pretty certain Mad Men has fairly heavy re-graining. There's an article about the steps they take to match 5219, which is apparently what it was previously shot on? And it does have a very grainy look to me. I'm guessing it helps cover the saturation lift in the reds and blues, too, which is a bit what I'm after. Just enough to smooth the natural Alexa grain.

Which of these would you recommend for a very subtle effect? Rgrain is good?

How is Vision colors? And Gorilla grain?

I want to use cinegrain, but we can't afford the $3k licensing fee.

 

[Tom Chase]

I've been debating investing in either the "Personal" version of CineGrain (since very very few of my projects go over a 10k budget and most of them are output to DVD or web) or FilmConvert. But here's my question where do most of you end up applying the grain; do you do in your grading suite or in your NLE (Premiere or FCP)?

 

[Marc Wielage]

I've been debating investing in either the "Personal" version of CineGrain (since very very few of my projects go over a 10k budget and most of them are output to DVD or web) or FilmConvert. But here's my question where do most of you end up applying the grain; do you do in your grading suite or in your NLE (Premiere or FCP)?

Apply the grain at the very end of the process to the color-corrected material. I would do it as a second render with the final, as opposed to a last node in the tree -- otherwise, it'd take too long. You could also do it in an NLE or in After Effects, your choice.

Just bear in mind that I think "less is more." Avoid the inclination to do too much.

 

[Robino_J]

But here's my question where do most of you end up applying the grain; do you do in your grading suite or in your NLE (Premiere or FCP)?

The choice of NLE is irrevelent if your are applying your grain with the "overlay" method - it's all going to look the same. For more control you can use a Keyer and apply more grain in the Shadows, little less in mids etc.. You can achieve that with after effects or any other competent compositing software.


I mostly use grain on shots that I have de-noised - to give them a little bit of life back. Sounds strange for some to de-noise and re-grain but when you get rid of blue noise on low light stuff I find grain plates really useful.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Apply the grain at the very end of the process to the color-corrected material. I would do it as a second render with the final, as opposed to a last node in the tree -- otherwise, it'd take too long. You could also do it in an NLE or in After Effects, your choice.

I would point out though that if you want to do it "correctly" and really match film it should be at the uncorrected level. Tweaking gamma and gain etc will affect the grain too. This usually is subtle but I've seen people apply film grain to sepia color corrected footage which just looks ridiculous since the grain is full color grain but the footage "behind" it is quasia black and white. If you grain as your first step then everything automagically is graded together. But yes, it is more painful from a processing and workflow perspective.

I mostly use grain on shots that I have de-noised - to give them a little bit of life back. Sounds strange for some to de-noise and re-grain but when you get rid of blue noise on low light stuff I find grain plates really useful.

Another grain management technique I would recommend is to check and see if your denoise plugin can output the grain it removes. If it doesn't you can do a difference key between the noisy footage and the de-noised footage. You can then tweak the noise that was removed and re-add it. This has the nice side effect of ensuring any fine detail that was erroneously was removed can be replaced while still giving you control over hand tweaking the noise before returning it.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would point out though that if you want to do it "correctly" and really match film it should be at the uncorrected level. Tweaking gamma and gain etc will affect the grain too.

The problem with that is I've had many situations where because of scene matching, certain scenes wind up getting hammered with extreme level changes, while surrounding scenes stay relatively unaffected. If you add the grain early on, the grain itself will be enhanced by extreme contrast changes. If you add the grain to the final color-corrected file, the grain levels will be consistent. This is even more exacerbated when the production uses different cameras, shoots different shots at radically different times (maybe months later), and sends certain shots out for VFX.

In truth, what you need to employ is grain management, using good judgement to add enough grain to every scene and every shot, but no more than enough. There often isn't a "one size fits all" setting for adding grain to an entire project.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

In truth, what you need to employ is grain management, using good judgement to add enough grain to every scene and every shot, but no more than enough. There often isn't a "one size fits all" setting for adding grain to an entire project.

Audodesk Flame and the cheap desktop Smoke on Mac have a very good grain management system that matches any grain-looks very close to film, even in a side by side comparison. Filmburns and flares, however, are a different thing. But flares can be shot digitally agains black with the Epic perfectly and burns can be animated with the Colour Warper as well. IMHO one gets well off without those packages but it needs some involvement in compositing.

Hans