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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform response to Final Cut Studio?

Hi David,

The question was about linux and then about Lustre because
Mike asked about those two. We are interested in support
Linux at some level but need to get a feel for what people
are interested in aside from our own biases.

There are lots of variable on the linux side. Some apps
work on multiple distributions and some companies
like to stick to certain distros (i.e. larger studios or
post houses). It's such a huge playing field
that it needs to be narrowed down to something
manageable (at the same time it's very limited also :).

A general command line utility should go a long way
to enable most, if not all of the linux compositing/grading
systems. What we do after that is more dependant on
the feedback we get.

Hope that makes some sense...

Deanan
 
Deanan said:
How pervasive is linux Luster vs win Lustre. I've only used the Windows version and don't really know which one is more popular out there.
Click to expand...

In the future, there will be no Windows Lustre. Autodesk has committed to the Linux platform for all of its systems products. My understanding is that the Windows build of Lustre - currently limited to the Lustre HD variant, I believe - will disappear in favor of Linux-only builds in the next upgrade cycle. But you should check with Autodesk on that for an accurate assessment.

A linux/mac/win renderfarm version is planned so that'll likely
come first.
Click to expand...

That's a good approach, as render farms are where the speed and low cost of Linux really comes into play.

My guess is that Quicktime will likely not be supported on linux
because there are so many holes in the linux QT libs. There could
be ways around it (wine, etc) but they're not really worth it since
QT access is more to enable win and mac apps and doesn't do
much for linux apps. Direct support would be better for linux.
Click to expand...

I think you and I are saying exactly the same thing here. Quicktime is not supported for Linux at all, at least not by its developer (Apple). My comment about supplying libraries for direct Red file access was not based around Quicktime wrappers, it was based around avoiding Quicktime entirely and enabling a generic solution that could be used by any developer of a Linux based application. I think we see this the same way.
 
mmost said:
My comment about supplying libraries for direct Red file access was not based around Quicktime wrappers, it was based around avoiding Quicktime entirely and enabling a generic solution that could be used by any developer of a Linux based application. I think we see this the same way.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Jim Reed said:
I'll place a vote for file support and dpx workflow for the Quantel systems. You've had some experience already at Park Road Post and iQ and Pablo do have the power to edit the full 4K. ((It would be great if the Quantel FPGA hardware could be accessed to handle the 4K demosaicing!!))
Click to expand...

I think that iQ is an incredibly powerful system, but the workflow for iQ...

RED -> REDCINE -> DPX -> Dylan ingest.

And then you start working. And don't forget how much storage you need for 4K DPX frames at 50MB/frame. The new shared workflow stuff Quantel showed at NAB was cool. But the iQ media is still proprietary and still needs to be ingested. At 4K.

Quantel has some brilliant people working for them, but the mentality of closed-system workflows really starts to break down in a world filled with 4K dailies and deliverables.

...my $.02.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Deanan,

I was thinking about all the RED post workflow variations and how to classify them.

Take Lustre, roughly the spec says 10-and 16-bit DPX, Cineon, Tiff, TARGA, Bitmap and SGI file formats as well as importing EDL's & (CMX 3600 for DPX).

Yeah it's good to come up with a list of online packages and what file formats they support but it seems more expediant to define the formats that RED will support....hint hint.
I guess the thing I have no clue about (...lots really) is variations of these file formats (or how robust they are when manipulating them) and also the different conforming standards between packages.

i guess you guys are going through a world of 'it' trying to be compatible!

I included a list here of 3D/Compositing/NLE/Grading software by platform translated from this Russian graphics site.

Cheers,

DF
 
luki said:
I think that iQ is an incredibly powerful system, but the workflow for iQ...

RED -> REDCINE -> DPX -> Dylan ingest.

And then you start working. And don't forget how much storage you need for 4K DPX frames at 50MB/frame. The new shared workflow stuff Quantel showed at NAB was cool. But the iQ media is still proprietary and still needs to be ingested. At 4K.


Lucas, I couldn't agree more. Quantel continues to insist that only their Dylans can provide the required speed without need to defrag. And they price them HIGH. These days, though, seems like Scratch and others get the throughput they need from many vendors of storage.

Also agree that folks seem not to realize that 4K finish is not a trivial thing, and that at 50 MB/frame--that's 4+ TB/hr!!

I'll contact you off list to hear more about Scratch.

Thanks for your $ .02

Jim Reed
Click to expand...
 
Jim Reed said:
luki said:
I think that iQ is an incredibly powerful system, but the workflow for iQ...

RED -> REDCINE -> DPX -> Dylan ingest.

And then you start working. And don't forget how much storage you need for 4K DPX frames at 50MB/frame. The new shared workflow stuff Quantel showed at NAB was cool. But the iQ media is still proprietary and still needs to be ingested. At 4K.


Lucas, I couldn't agree more. Quantel continues to insist that only their Dylans can provide the required speed without need to defrag. And they price them HIGH. These days, though, seems like Scratch and others get the throughput they need from many vendors of storage.

Also agree that folks seem not to realize that 4K finish is not a trivial thing, and that at 50 MB/frame--that's 4+ TB/hr!!

I'll contact you off list to hear more about Scratch.

Thanks for your $ .02

Jim Reed
Click to expand...
Those huge file sizes are one of the reasons I'm interested in OpenExr, which supports various lossless compression methods.
For me..
RED -> RedCine -> OpenExr -> Fuson 5.1, or if Eyeon ever gets their act together, just bring in the Quicktime file.
Click to expand...
 
zeke said:
Jim Reed said:
RED -> RedCine -> OpenExr -> Fuson 5.1, or if Eyeon ever gets their act together, just bring in the Quicktime file.
Click to expand...

Ideally you'd want to go:
RED->Fusion 5.1

via a fusion plugin directly or an openfx plugin.

I'm not saying there will or won't be one :)

Chances are that people will want to deliver openexr or dpx
to vfx with a baked in white balance and colorspace.

Deanan
Click to expand...
 
i'm about to buy the red cam, and i hope the red cam will be fully supported on the pc side through premiere pro. I'm not gonna switch to mac just for red workflow support. i think i will hold off on my purchase till david is given the freedom to do his work properly
 
luki said:
I think that iQ is an incredibly powerful system, but the workflow for iQ...

RED -> REDCINE -> DPX -> Dylan ingest.

And then you start working. And don't forget how much storage you need for 4K DPX frames at 50MB/frame. The new shared workflow stuff Quantel showed at NAB was cool. But the iQ media is still proprietary and still needs to be ingested. At 4K.

Quantel has some brilliant people working for them, but the mentality of closed-system workflows really starts to break down in a world filled with 4K dailies and deliverables.

...my $.02.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
Click to expand...

Can't eQ and iQ import QT's ? And therefore the original Redcoded Quicktime ? Still you'd have the importing, of course.

Jim Reed said:
Lucas, I couldn't agree more. Quantel continues to insist that only their Dylans can provide the required speed without need to defrag. And they price them HIGH. These days, though, seems like Scratch and others get the throughput they need from many vendors of storage.

Also agree that folks seem not to realize that 4K finish is not a trivial thing, and that at 50 MB/frame--that's 4+ TB/hr!!

I'll contact you off list to hear more about Scratch.

Thanks for your $ .02

Jim Reed
Click to expand...

Scratch is a formidable coded package, but even they need 1.2Gb of throughput for 4K uncompressed/realtime. And this is not done with a bunch of striped desktop discs. Quantel choses its system/Dylans because they provide turnkey systems and can't allow a dropped frame. You can buy scratch for your laptop if you like to. And besides the Dylans have come down pretty much in price in the last years.
 
killfilm said:
i'm about to buy the red cam, and i hope the red cam will be fully supported on the pc side through premiere pro. I'm not gonna switch to mac just for red workflow support. i think i will hold off on my purchase till david is given the freedom to do his work properly
Click to expand...

Remember, Premier Pro CS3 is coming to the MAC. Maybe someone should talk to someone at Adobe about what is and isn't supported.
 
You'll get support through the Quicktime codec on the PC.

Graeme
 
augenmensch aka therock said:
Can't eQ and iQ import QT's ? And therefore the original Redcoded Quicktime ? Still you'd have the importing, of course.
Click to expand...

Yes - the Q series of products can import QT. So that puts it in line with other products that will support QT. Except for those pesky Dylans and the need to import into a proprietary format that nobody else can see or understand...

augenmensch aka therock said:
Scratch is a formidable coded package, but even they need 1.2Gb of throughput for 4K uncompressed/realtime. And this is not done with a bunch of striped desktop discs. Quantel choses its system/Dylans because they provide turnkey systems and can't allow a dropped frame. You can buy scratch for your laptop if you like to. And besides the Dylans have come down pretty much in price in the last years.
Click to expand...

Quantel originally built the Dylans because at that time, the only way to get that kind of dedicated performance was to build your own file system, your own drivers, your own hardware, your own files, and control the disk subsystem completely. And for many years, the Dylans were revolutionary in their capability and performance.

That is no longer the case. It is no longer rocket science to build a disk subsystem that can consistently support realtime 2K and beyond.

Quantel's answer is to up the ante to 4K. That's fine... but the higher the resolution, the more rarefied the customer base and the more expensive everything gets. And it is a rathole. In another year or 2, realtime 4K RGB will be fairly easy as well. Then what?

And true - the Dylans have come down in price. Down from several hundred thousand for a disk subsystem is the only way they could go!!

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
It's quite doable to get > 1.2GB/s with either
direct attached disks or fiber channel on windows or linux.
(not sure about osx because I haven't tried it)

Deanan
 
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