Cineform response to Final Cut Studio?

[Deanan]

Still a RAW pixel format would only be a small effort for your team and get the real-time PC post up and running very quickly, even if it was a CineForm solution.

It's not simple once you start factoring in the time QA all the stuff that
happens after RAW and all the changes that will be happening over
the next few months. Our bandwidth at the moment is best spent
focusing on our current workflow as Graeme mentioned.

Since you asked...

Linux. In some format that Autodesk applications understand.

I can't be the first one to bring this up - can I?

Very very few requests so far. Internally we have the
three camps well represented. Graeme is mac biased,
Rob is way too Windows biased (but we still like him),
and I'm the token linux guy (linux, irix, tru64, etc.).

Most likely the linux stuff will be command line

Deanan

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Linux has been mentioned. How would you like Linux support to work - I'd guess myself some command line tools would be easiest all around.

Graeme

 

[Deanan]

Linux has been mentioned. How would you like Linux support to work - I'd guess myself some command line tools would be easiest all around.

Graeme

And which applications are you planning on integrating with?
I'm presuming Burn and maybe Nucoda and ?

 

[Deanan]

The next obvious question for you guys...
What distros are you using?

d

 

[Graeme Nattress]

And is what you really need a tool to take REDCODE RAW to RAW RGB, or basic grade RGB or in-camera metadata grade RGB? Into what formats - tiff, dpx, exr etc? In what colour space? And in what sizes? 1k, 2k, 4k?

Graeme

 

[Deanan]

And is what you really need a tool to take REDCODE RAW to RAW RGB, or basic grade RGB or in-camera metadata grade RGB? Into what formats - tiff, dpx, exr etc? In what colour space? And in what sizes? 1k, 2k, 4k?

Graeme

Agreed. It would certainly help to understand what pipelines you want
to integrate into from start to end. We have to fully understand so we
can plan for linux integration now and implement as soon as we
have the bandwidth.

d

 

[Joe Carney]

Agreed. It would certainly help to understand what pipelines you want
to integrate into from start to end. We have to fully understand so we
can plan for linux integration now and implement as soon as we
have the bandwidth.

d

Network rendering comes to mind, especially in 64bit. Doing it without the Apple or MS software tax would be great.
I heard Unbutu is popular.

 

[david farland]

1K grading may be known but 10bit RGB 2K, 4K is still in the upper bracket for people.
And yes it's very valuable to know what choices people have out there.

I thought lots of them were going from SGI to unix and quite a few had both unix/win support.
But if you can't afford a proper grading or compositing system,does it matter if it's on unix, sgi or windows. You pass it to somebody else to do that.

I thought more pressing would be i/o compatibility file formats or edl, aaf, cmx, xml, etc formats and of course bit depth/colour space.
But I still not too sure about this area Deanan....like lots of people here I'm learning.
Also the platform support seems to change so quickly.

Cheers,

 

[M Most]

And which applications are you planning on integrating with?
I'm presuming Burn and maybe Nucoda and ?

Wow, so much response for one request. I'm flattered.

Actually, I was thinking more about Lustre than anything else. Right now, one could, of course, use Redcine and convert to DPX for use in any Linux environment, and that is one workflow possibility. However, the ability to color correct directly from the raw data is a very useful one, particularly on more extreme footage. To this end, it would be nice to supply libraries that software such as Lustre, Nucoda, Baselight, and Flint/Flame/Inferno could use to allow "native" operation with Red media files, much as Redcine and Scratch will have. A full Linux port of Redcine is probably not necessary, as just about all shops have at least a few Macs and Windows PC's around to do this. Of course, if the libraries would allow a Linux based render farm for Redcine, that would be nice too.....

By the way, this request is not necessarily for me personally. I just happen to see an industry need, based on the fact that many higher end DI projects are being finished on Linux based tools, not to mention the rather copious use of Linux on render farms - due in part to its "free" status, but also due to its scalability and efficiency. For the moment, we're Scratch users - and right now, that's a very good place for a Red-supporting post facility to be. But I would like to have flexibility in the future, and many Linux based tools are very attractive for various reasons. One could view the lack of Linux Quicktime support as a problem, or one could view it as an opportunity to provide more direct, and possibly more efficient, access to the media without third party code in the way .... ;--)

 

[laguun]

I thought lots of them were going from SGI to unix and quite a few had both unix/win support.

ggi had their own unix blend (irix), however, sgi, irix & mips are gone from the vfx/nle/di market.
there are still some legacy systems running, but autodesk is now completly x86 & linux.

however, wouldn´t it be possible to support these simply by a V-machine running under linux or a seperate win/osx transcoding box getting commands via scripts?

I thought more pressing would be i/o compatibility file formats or edl, aaf, cmx, xml, etc formats and of course bit depth/colour space.
But I still not too sure about this area Deanan....like lots of people here I'm learning.
Also the platform support seems to change so quickly.

speakig of edls, aaf, xml... many manufacturers have their own internal issues & bugs...so...graeme, it would be -excellent- if RED would deliver the redcine/code software to the reservation holders before shipment of the cameras.

we could provide valuable, maybe even excellent, feedback even without the cameras.

 

[Peter McCully]

We're working on it.....

Graeme

Graeme, thanks for that hint about future workflow in PC environment. I am not in a hurry to badger you Red guys with a lot of questions because I know it can be a drag but I do have some questions about the Final Cut software. At NAB I was given the impression from the Apple booth that Final Cut is upgrading with the inclusion of "Color" their new grading module but that you have to get the whole package (US$16,000 approx) and not have the option to get it in separate packages. This is wasteful because an editor is not neccessarily a compositor or a grader and to have that much money just tied up on one box...? Ideally, I would want Final Cut (or an equivalent PC software) on a laptop on location. Then, in the office - in a light controlled environment the grading module and the compositing module on different suites. Each of the parts of Final Cut would need to be individually accessable in much the same way as the Adobe production bundle works. After all, 16K is almost as much as the camera head. Do you know something I don't here? Can you give any hints about the PC development - is it heading the Avid way???
Thanks heaps.

 

[Jim Reed]

No, but please tell us what you want supporting apart from the obvious 3 A's - Apple, Adobe and Avid.

Graeme

I'll place a vote for file support and dpx workflow for the Quantel systems. You've had some experience already at Park Road Post and iQ and Pablo do have the power to edit the full 4K. ((It would be great if the Quantel FPGA hardware could be accessed to handle the 4K demosaicing!!))

Jim Reed

 

[laguun]

Graeme, thanks for that hint about future workflow in PC environment. I am not in a hurry to badger you Red guys with a lot of questions because I know it can be a drag but I do have some questions about the Final Cut software. At NAB I was given the impression from the Apple booth that Final Cut is upgrading with the inclusion of "Color" their new grading module but that you have to get the whole package (US$16,000 approx) and not have the option to get it in separate packages.

16.000?
should be ~1200$

Can you give any hints about the PC development - is it heading the Avid way???
Thanks heaps.

the only avid system which could handle red 4k atm would be DS, so i suppose (hope) Adobe Premiere is first in the queue, which is pretty resolution agnostic.

 

[david farland]

Can dpx be Raw or RGB?

 

[Joel Kaye]

At NAB I was given the impression from the Apple booth that Final Cut is upgrading with the inclusion of "Color" their new grading module but that you have to get the whole package (US$16,000 approx) and not have the option to get it in separate packages

Color is FREE. The studio package price of about $1200 is the same as it was without Color.

 

[David Newman]

Can dpx be Raw or RGB?

Dalsa uses DPX in a RAW format, but I don't know if it is a standard extension -- Adobe's tools will not load them without help.

 

[Peter McCully]

16.000?
should be ~1200$


the only avid system which could handle red 4k atm would be DS, so i suppose (hope) Adobe Premiere is first in the queue, which is pretty resolution agnostic.

You're right of course! Thanks.

 

[Deanan]

Can dpx be Raw or RGB?

There are many formats that can be used to package a Red Raw bayer
files. Basically anything that can do a 12bit luminance
or four channel file. Tiff and DPX are generally the most likely
candidates (SGI files too .

DPX has the advantage of having alot of metadata that's useful
to us. The down side is that dpx as format is rarely full
supported let alone supported properly in few common types
people do support.

Deanan

 

[Deanan]

Wow, so much response for one request. I'm flattered.

Actually, I was thinking more about Lustre than anything else.
Of course, if the libraries would allow a Linux based render farm for Redcine, that would be nice too.....

One could view the lack of Linux Quicktime support as a problem, or one could view it as an opportunity to provide more direct, and possibly more efficient, access to the media without third party code in the way .... ;--)

How pervasive is linux Luster vs win Lustre. I've only used the Windows
version and don't really know which one is more popular out there.

A linux/mac/win renderfarm version is planned so that'll likely
come first.

My guess is that Quicktime will likely not be supported on linux
because there are so many holes in the linux QT libs. There could
be ways around it (wine, etc) but they're not really worth it since
QT access is more to enable win and mac apps and doesn't do
much for linux apps. Direct support would be better for linux.

Deanan

 

[david farland]

Deanan,

Let me get this clear.

You’re looking at grading systems i.e. Autodesk Lustre and want to know our preferences OS wise and maybe other grading system preferences also?
Or are you interested in just Autodesk products to begin?

Stepping back a bit, Red obviously has to have an order when it comes to supporting different time-lined based editors, effects /compositing /grading systems and file types. You can’t do everything at once!
I don’t care what the order is, just nice to know you have one because then we know not to jack you guys about why can’t we have support for this package, codec, raw format etc.

You want to know our preferences regarding linux/windows on grading systems but shouldn’t you also be looking at all systems that receive Red produced online quality video/image files, i.e. compositing systems as well.
You also mention that linux QT is crap and should be avoided. Any thing else regarding platform?

So, if I get Brook, :whistling: to come up with a chart that lists most of the NLE’s, FX / Compositor packages and Grading systems by platform, input/output video codec & image format, bit depth, color space & conforming standards
and their respective sales figures, that should give you enough to go on with.

I’m on to it!!

Cheers,