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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform response to Final Cut Studio?

I hate it when mummy & daddy fight!

David, we so respect what you're doing, but this ain't the arena!


Cheers,
 
it's acceptable.. they're competitors.. we love both and we can't live without one or another.. even if in this arena i'm with david because apple is too much expensive in indie language when we have the PC stuff around the corner..

cineform rules over here.. Mr Newman as well.
 
Thank you guys for the support. I'm not trying to be a competitor, CineForm doesn't build cameras, we support the post of every camera we can. The may not be the appropriate venue for these discussions, but where is when there are threads with CineForm in the title I get dragged into it again. If Red is successful in providing every software feature for free then the will be no market for third parties, then good on them, but no one in business history have ever been that successful. Even when Microsoft had 95% of the market with Internet Explorer, I still purchased Opera. Open your market, don't create artificial barriers to entry. Consider CineForm is to Red like Nattress Effects is to Final Cut Pro -- who's business is that hurting -- not Apples.

P.S. If people want to ask question about CineForm try http://www.dvinfo.net, there I don't have the feel like a controversial figure.
 
David,
I think you provide an expertise & balance that raises the standards of this forum. i'd hate to see you go. I just see your approach regarding commercials on this forum ain’t gonna bring em out.

Trying to look at the whole Apple v PC thing….

Firstly to get any benefit in using Apple in a 4K space I must be able to add effects/CC in FCP/Color and then publish at 10bit RGB 4K.
I’ll make a leap of faith and say if FCP were to publish 4K it must:

1. Ingest native 10bit 4K Raw onto the timeline (where editors add certain basic effects)
2. Port over to Color for final grading..(Color only can handle 2K)
3. Port back over to FCP.
4. Somehow add 4K effects / 4K compositing. (and miss the grading!!)
5. Perform final conform to 4K RGB, via REDCINE API to create 4K sequence files.

I’m pretty sure step 4 (or 5) can’t be done. So therefore FCP/Color can’t do 4K effects, grade and publish.

So the highest rez path for Apple is 2K from FCP to Color which will only output (8/10?) bit RGB 2K sequence files. I hope I got that correct.

On the PC side for 4K publish. Let’s say I use Premiere Pro with the Cineform API.

1. REDCINE to do a low rez extract (I don’t need Cineform for this)
2. Perform an offline edit.
3. Use REDCODE again to achieve an online to Cineform 10bit RGB 4K file.
4. Feed into Premiere Pro/Cineform for onlining & 10bit 4K publish.

Is this correct?

For a 2K workflow, I could use REDCINE to output a 10bit 2K Cineform file which I would import into Premiere Pro/Cineform for onlining & 10bit 2K publish.

Finally, are you wanting Cineform to directly import raw data from RED media, perform low rez edit cuts/effects/grading and then conform to high rez Cineform 10bit 4K files? Also how do you produce 4K dpx, cineon output files?



Cheers,

DF
 
Nick Shaw said:
There is a REDFX FXPlug plugin for FCP, which gives you access to REDCINE type adjustments, right there in the FCP timeline. It was not ready to be demo'd at NAB, but Mike Curtis assured me it was coming.
Click to expand...

It's actually been usable for a few months now but the last minute
demo machine had something different about it and it didn't load
into FCP. I didn't want to mess with the demo machine during
the show so we didn't show it.

It may have been running at the Apple booth.

Deanan
 
David, i'm sorry but we'll need for your support here.. among us.

i love jarred (red is not just the jim's success or graeme's codec success) but i have no the same feeling about chris hurd.. i'm sorry but i have not..

so.. succeeding this:

David Newman said:
but where is when there are threads with CineForm in the title I get dragged into it again.
Click to expand...

can we count on you here right?
 
David Newman said:
If Red is successful in providing every software feature for free then the will be no market for third parties, then good on them, but no one in business history have ever been that successful.
Click to expand...
yup.. you're right.. their business is the hardware..

mine?.. my pocket or my bank account..

mine or ours?..

what's the best?..

$5,000 for the hardware and software (PC + Cineform) ?

or more than $12,500 just for the hardware (even if the software is free..) ?
 
filmmaker's gang said:
David, i'm sorry but we'll need for your support here.. among us.

i love jarred (red is not just jim's success or graeme's codec success) but i have no the same feeling about chris hurd.. i'm sorry but i have not..

so.. succeeding this:



can we count on you here right?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the rules are grey here, this is effectively a RED corporate site, and my response to questions often reveals RED's less then clear support for third parties (those are not now insiders.) Chris Hurd is a nice guy, no open biases on his site which has been very welcoming to CineForm. Jarred's DVXUser has been more welcoming to CineForm also, and we will likely start advertising to both sites soon now that NAB is behind us. When I asked, I was not given an option to officially advertise here (and yes I would like to.) So when I reply here I am very conscious of the thin line I have to tread. If you wish more open answers, please use DVInfo.net, DVXUser (once we advertising there) or email.
 
filmmaker's gang said:
yup.. you're right.. their business is the hardware..
...
$5,000 for the hardware and software (PC + Cineform) ?

or more than $12,500 just for the hardware (even if the software is free..) ?
Click to expand...

It is not just price. Features will be different, workflow will be different, these differences create market share for all.
 
David Newman said:
If Red is successful in providing every software feature for free
Click to expand...

RED sells hardware. The logical strategy is to provide as much workflow software for free as possible so workflow is never a sales objection. In fact, they want to sell the low cost workflow as an amazing benefit to shooting RED as opposed to anything else. Until the workflow is blatantly superior to film they won't begin to dent the higher end of market.
 
David Newman said:
Unfortunately the rules are grey here, this is effectively a RED corporate site, and my response to questions often reveals RED's less then clear support for third parties (those are not now insiders.) Chris Hurd is a nice guy, no open biases on his site which has been very welcoming to CineForm. Jarred's DVXUser has been more welcoming to CineForm also, and we will likely start advertising to both sites soon now that NAB is behind us. When I asked, I was not given an option to officially advertise here (and yes I would like to.) So when I reply here I am very conscious of the thin line I have to tread. If you wish more open answers, please use DVInfo.net, DVXUser (once we advertising there) or email.
Click to expand...
advertise here! why not?

the red users need for your product and support.. i'm not a cineform customer.. only directly.. because my editor is a cineform user and he shares the same viewpoint.. cineform is the best indie product.. like red.. not less..
 
David Newman said:
It is not just price. Features will be different, workflow will be different, these differences create market share for all.
Click to expand...
agreed.. their problem.. not ours..

i love this forum.. but sometimes these bros here are naives like angels.. our interest is not the same than.. when i send my money it's not to my bank account.. it exits from my bank account..
 
We're working on it.....

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
We're working on it.....

Graeme
Click to expand...

good to know -
we have so much money, knowhow, licenses and infrastructure on the windows, not osx side of pcs that a shift to osx (besides maybe a few stations) would not be really possible.

also, we need 4k grading, and there is none on osx if i am informed correctly?
 
Sure you can grade 4k on OS X.....

The benefit of doing the FCP workflow first though, is that it means we get all the quicktime stuff right, and as you may know, that can be tricky.

Graeme
 
Graeme,
Thanks for the reassurance, this is a very important issue to many of us that have a lot of investment in PCs. Any indication who will be step up on the PC side to offer RED native support?

Gopher
 
Let's get 1st party support going before we worry about 3rd parties!

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Sure you can grade 4k on OS X.....
Click to expand...

yeah - i was refferring to DI & CC (as in scratch, lustre, baselight, quantel etc) and i am not aware of a osx DI & CC 4k solution.

i would be happy if i misunderstood that color was "only" 2k, as the price/performance ratio of FCS is really very good.

i have to admit however, that i a m a little bit afraid of the workflow. if i understand it correctly, fcp is now @ 10 rgb color is at 2k but doesn´t support redcode. that sure is already a excellent archievement, but our "spoiled" clients will probably not accept that. (or i have misunderstood something, however there are still several months to plan our workflow)

Graeme Nattress said:
The benefit of doing the FCP workflow first though, is that it means we get all the quicktime stuff right, and as you may know, that can be tricky.
Click to expand...
yeah, i think that makes perfectly sense in that order.
we even speculated that you would go that way here at laguun.
we were sitting in front of the computer here with 3 people when you annouced that at the apple pressconference and we were going like "hrrrhrrr, that was sooo obvious..."

it would be outstanding if you could develop a similar workflow for the other inexpensive, very popular software on that other commercial os...

ps. i would not hesitate to integrate one or two macs in the network here, FCS is really interesting, and we also have a license for compatibilit purposes already. however, we are planning our 4k di pipeline with grading, and it seems that rules out FCS as single solution, unless i am overseeing something.
 
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