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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform response to Final Cut Studio?

David, what about the RAW processing. These guys are saying you can drop RAW footage into a FCP timeline, directly, which really surprises me.

To work with Prospect HD, will you have to run your footage through REDCINE and convert it to your codec, basically? If so, do you know if the data rates will be about the same?

It seemed like your Aspect intermediates were roughly the same size as the HVX native footage.
 
Tom,

We are doing 4K RAW processing today on the timeline (more than what has been described for RECODE RAW -- although that could change.) Yes you need to use REDCINE to export to CineForm. If you export to CineForm 4:4:4 at 2K, the data rate is around 35-40MB/s (it might be lower as REDCODE has already lost some high frequency data -- 27MB/s wavelet is not magic.) At this quality you are going better than HDCAM-SR 4:4:4 (see my blog post on this : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/04/mastering-to-hdcam-sr-vs-cineform-444.html.) If REDCINE allows for a RAW export, CineForm RAW 4K encodes would be around 35MB/s (if the data was from the RAW port it would be more like 45MB/s -- again the pre-filtering of REDCODE will drop the data rate.) The high datarate of CineForm RAW is not that it is less efficient, we are simply choosing to compress less as we don't have the hardware limitations REDCODE has to deal with (flash / laptop drive speeds etc.) We like to maintain a lot of headroom for the best possible post and to be competive with HDCAM-SR and other respective compression standards. Of course the quality is selectable with the CineForm encoder, you could increase or decrease the data rate as needed. I have some crazy low 10MB/s 4K RAW sequences of Dalsa Origin footage, still looks very nice, bit too low for extensive grading I would imagine.
 
Okay, so basically Apple is bypassing the REDCINE step and allows you to do that processing at the end of the editing process?

Are you saying it remains to be seen whether REDCINE can "export" RAW? If it does not allow for export of 4K RAW, then you would have to make your white balance, exposure, and other RAW decisions at the REDCINE stage, before they are "burned in" to the Cineform intermediate, is that right?
 
Tom, that is correct, that is why we hope for a RAW connection with REDCINE, so we can control the white balance controls. You as export flat (unprocessed) to 4:4:4 2K, which will preserve the headroom as an alternative. As what you can do with REDCODE in FCP is not completely clear yet.
 
Thanks.

While I've got you here... what about reframing and cropping 4K stuff? If we decide we only want to use 60% of our 4K footage frame and crop it down to 2K for our final product, at what stage and in what piece of software would we do that? Does Cineform work inside AE, by any chance?
 
CineForm works great in AE. If you has CineForm RAW 4K you can do reframing within any CineForm compatible tool -- today AE, PPro, Combustion, Fusion (limited testing), etc. It is nice to do reframing in the NLE, so you can do it in context of adjacent sequences.
 
Thanks, David for all the great news! There's no doubt CineForm is going to provide a workable solution.

Tom - u had asked about the learning curve on FCP; I don't see much myself if you already understand and work with PP2.0; both UI's are similar.

I'm glad I've got a few months to figure this out; starting to get confusing :).
 
David, are you proposing to use Redcine to transcode Redcode RAW 4k to Cineform RAW 4k?

Are bayer patterns the same between the two?

And compression on top of compression isn't all that ideal... is it?
 
David Newman said:
CineForm works great in AE. If you has CineForm RAW 4K you can do reframing within any CineForm compatible tool -- today AE, PPro, Combustion, Fusion (limited testing), etc. It is nice to do reframing in the NLE, so you can do it in context of adjacent sequences.
Click to expand...

I think you guys are wise to try to keep a close eye on RED and support it as much as possible. I don't know how the Silicon Imaging stuff is selling, but it doesn't feel like nearly as nice a solution as RED is - although it might make a great studio camera.
 
go cineform go, i really dont wanna switch to mac just for redcode raw support, i can just stick to what'm good at, thats ppro and ae. yes!
 
Barend Onneweer said:
David, are you proposing to use Redcine to transcode Redcode RAW 4k to Cineform RAW 4k?

Are bayer patterns the same between the two?

And compression on top of compression isn't all that ideal... is it?
Click to expand...

Bayer patterns are the same, there are only a few varieties.

Compressing to CineForm RAW 4k would be least distortion of any other export option, developing to RGB and compressing to anything else introduces more distortion than staying in the same bayer structure. Staying in Redcode RAW will have it issues, compatibility, speed, flexibility. Converting to uncompressed has it issues, huge data size, and cooked in look. There is no ideal in post. We simply offer more post production choices.

CineForm's business is the compression other people's formats to make the post workflow more flexible, faster and higher quality for multiple generation. We do this for HDV, P2, MXF, ACVHD, HDCAM-SR, whatever it is. Lot of stuff on the web site explaining this. We've been doing it for years.
 
Davd, I went to the Cineform online store and couldn't find a product called Cineform Raw. How much, exactly, does this cost for 4k raw, and what do you get for your money? Can other people play back cineform raw 4k files on mac, pc, or linux?

Graeme
 
CineForm RAW is a core technology of Prospect 2K (http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm -- $1999) and likely part of the upcoming Neo 2K product (http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm --$799.) Here is a very old write-up on CineForm RAW posted about this time last year : http://www.cineform.com/technology/CineForm_RAW.htm. I showed you it personally at NAB last year. Since then CineForm RAW has integrated an Iridas 3D LUT look system, gone through many updates and customers have posted several features with it that shot with the SI-2K cameras (and its prototypes.) So the website needs some updates, which we never have time for. CineForm RAW plays back on PC, and the Mac stuff is in beta for CineForm Intermediate and internal only for RAW, the code will port to Linux whenever there is enough demand (we have a SDK for this purpose.)

We have a lot of RED customers awaiting for our support, primarily on the PC. I have been trying to ask RED for some time (now that I have your brief attention) for a QuickTime pixel format out of REDCINE, so that REDCODE RAW can be quickly (no demosaic) exported to CineForm RAW or DNG or any other raw formats. All you need to do is add a pixel format like "BYR2" for a FOURCC code (http://fourcc.org/rgb.php) so that you can export raw at 16-bit linear per pixel. The is no downside to RED (only a small engineering effort) with the benefits of increasing the end user options. What do you think?
 
I would like to express my support for David Newman and Cineform, right now.
 
Thanks Tom. I'd like to express my support for REDCODE and for keeping it free, and for expanding it's capabilities to meet the needs of all our users.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Thanks Tom. I'd like to express my support for REDCODE and for keeping it free, and for expanding it's capabilities to meet the needs of all our users.

Graeme
Click to expand...


On that note, if Jim bought Accuscene, think he might pony up the cash for Adobe?

:)
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Thanks Tom. I'd like to express my support for REDCODE and for keeping it free, and for expanding it's capabilities to meet the needs of all our users.

Graeme
Click to expand...

And no one is suggesting you should do otherwise. Enabling third party options would hardly mean the end of this goal, it is more likely to assist in addressing those customer needs.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Thanks Tom. I'd like to express my support for REDCODE and for keeping it free, and for expanding it's capabilities to meet the needs of all our users.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Hey, how can I argue with that?
 
Tom said:
I would like to express my support for David Newman and Cineform, right now.
Click to expand...
I second that.

Delivery date?

I've read something around $2,000 (and $3,000 hardware related, a lot less than a FCP/Mac solution, NOT free as well), is it so?
 
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