CineForm Prospect 4K now in beta.

[Karl H]

$1999 is the planned price for Prospect 4K, and NEO 4K at $999.

Hi David, I know that the difference between Prospect 4K and Neo 4K is the realtime engine for Premiere. Is that the only difference? And can you give a ballbark estimate of how much faster it is to use Prospect over Neo?

 

[David Taylor]

Darkline,

Yes, the RT engine in P4K is the primary difference with Neo 4K, but it's a pretty big difference. As you may know, Wavelets have a multi-res decoding property that is a "built-in" characteristic of the way the compression works. You can think of the lower-res decode as a "dynamic, real-time proxy" because it is created in RT from the full-res source file. Because the preview resolution is not a proxy, and because it derives directly from the source file, it is a "perfect" representation of the source. In fact you can color correct using the preview resolution.

The CineForm RT engine understands this characteristic and allow both user-defined and dynamic switching between full-resolution and preview resolution displays on the timeline. In addition to the multi-res decoding, CineForm has real-time effects, transitions, and other filters that operate with CineForm files. Think of P4K as a hardware accelerator that is implemented in software.

When outside PPro, we aren't able to use our RT engine, so we offer Neo 4K. Both include a myriad of conversion features through our application called HD Link.

While the CineForm codec is compatible with virtually all apps on Windows and Mac, we don't have the ability to accelerate those (non-PPro) apps using our engine. There are things we can do inside the codec itself however, and we do. For instance, we can observe the calling application and know when to deliver 8 bit versus 10 bit. That's a simple example, but descriptive of the "smarts" that we build into the codec to try to improve features/functions even if we don't have our RT engine present.

A final comment is that recently we released a shell-based tool (free utility) to batch-convert DPX files into and out of CineForm 444. So for those with traditional DPX files and workflows, you now have the option of much smaller files and accelerated workflows by converting to and from CineForm 444. The converter is available through our website.

This is perhaps longer than you expected, but hopefully it was descriptive.

 

[David Taylor]

Darkline, despite the length of my previous post I didn't answer your second question. CineForm files in PPro using P4K will play roughly 4X faster than CineForm files without our RT engine because of the multi-res decoding built into the engine. More than that, PPro forces you to render frequently (our engine does not) so there is a workflow impact also.

 

[Karl H]

Thanks David, that explains a lot. Much appreciated.


Im buying a new PC (or Mac) soon so I'll download and test then.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Prospect 4K has arrived. This allows you to encode 4:4:4 4K CineForm out of RedCine and edit them online in a PC Premiere Pro timeline.

Information on how to use Prospect 4K, and the workflow is here:
http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/Red-Prospect4K.htm

Prospect 4K includes all the features of NEO 4K, but adds Premiere Pro integration and real-time editing features.

I look forward to your feedback.

P.S. Those whos trial has run out on NEO 4K, the 3.2.1 version of Prospect 4K or NEO 4K will give you an additional 15-days.

P.P.S Download can be requested from here : http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm

David... SOLD!!! I want this.. I am very exciting about this.. I will be starting with the 2k as I have no need for 4k at this time in my life. Thanks for the work!

Jay
production@dreamwelder.com

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Guys,

What is Adobe's answer to "color" or is there one? This seems to be the only piece missing.

Jay

 

[David Taylor]

I don't think Adobe has a direct response to Color, but CineForm and Iridas just announced a technology alliance that will span cross platform, and of course that includes compatibility with Adobe products. Iridas has already integrated CineForm RAW on Windows. MacOS pending....

 

[Luis Otero]

Mac CS3

Mac CS3

FCP is still 2K only, so that will be an issue for 4K onlines. Under FCP we are only recommend 4:4:4 2K exports from RedCine. Mac PPro CS3 maybe soon. Currently we are focusing on the PC CS3 workflow as PPro/AE supports 4K and we are already tightly integrated.

David,

I do have a Intel Mac, running CS3 for Mac, and PP2 for XP through Bootcamp. I bought the NEO 2K since all your graphs in your website say that there is HD Link for PC and Mac. Once installed, I just realized that there is not HD Link for Mac CS3. How soon this will be available? I assume it would be for free since the website mention HD Link for both operating systems, right?

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Guys,

What is Adobe's answer to "color" or is there one? This seems to be the only piece missing.

Jay

Jay,

If you have the full CS3 suite, you can always do color work in AE at full quality. Sometimes, I import a frame from a scene into Photoshop, grade it there to my liking, then import the "look" into AE and the whole clip into AE as well and apply the look to the clip and let AE render the settings into the whole clip. Works pretty fast even with uncompressed HD, so with Cineform files it would be even faster. Other than that, there's a pluggin for either Premiere or AE called "Color Finesse" from Synthetic Apperture that is just awesome IMO, 32 bit floating point precision, 3 weel primary correction, the works. They are worth a look. I've seen clips graded with Finesse compared side by side with the same clip done on a Da Vinci, an Inferno and a Quantel, and save for the obvious differences and nuances of every system, the quality was absolutely the same as those million dollar monsters...

 

[JustMe]

"HD+ are currently shipping for Macintosh, with the Windows version coming soon."
"it was after the completion of Dust to Glory that we finished integration work with Synthetic Aperture to allow 10-bit color correction directly within Premiere Pro. "

Wonder what happend to these idea's

 

[Joe Carney]

Jay,

If you have the full CS3 suite, you can always do color work in AE at full quality. Sometimes, I import a frame from a scene into Photoshop, grade it there to my liking, then import the "look" into AE and the whole clip into AE as well and apply the look to the clip and let AE render the settings into the whole clip. Works pretty fast even with uncompressed HD, so with Cineform files it would be even faster. Other than that, there's a pluggin for either Premiere or AE called "Color Finesse" from Synthetic Apperture that is just awesome IMO, 32 bit floating point precision, 3 weel primary correction, the works. They are worth a look. I've seen clips graded with Finesse compared side by side with the same clip done on a Da Vinci, an Inferno and a Quantel, and save for the obvious differences and nuances of every system, the quality was absolutely the same as those million dollar monsters...

Check out Colorista and/or Magic Bullet looks for AE and PPro.

 

[Gian Joon]

CineForm

CineForm

...CineForm approach is more video centric than film, online rather than offline, so its workflow will likely appeal to different users.


.

David, this quote is from some other thread. I am not able to understand what you mean by Video Centric approach.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well David won't be able to answer any more questions... so I'll try to do the best I can for what I think he meant.

Film Centric means:
Edit SD or HD offline 24p telecine footage.
Create EDL
Cut Negative or conform DPX files based on EDL.

Video Centric Means:
Edit, Grade and Conform the actual footage in an intermediate codec such as Cineform, DV or HDCAM.

 

[Tom Lowe]

So for someone planning to finish at 2K, P2K is really all we need? We could always keep the 4K masters in archive just in case.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Yes, basically that is the idea.

 

[Luis Otero]

Any answer?

Any answer?

David,

I do have a Intel Mac, running CS3 for Mac, and PP2 for XP through Bootcamp. I bought the NEO 2K since all your graphs in your website say that there is HD Link for PC and Mac. Once installed, I just realized that there is not HD Link for Mac CS3. How soon this will be available? I assume it would be for free since the website mention HD Link for both operating systems, right?

I really would like to get an estimate as to when HDLink will be available for Mac...!!!

 

[Gian Joon]

Thanks Gavin.

 

[David Taylor]

Tom,

You still have a workflow decision to make regarding Prospect 2K or Prospect 4K, even if your final project is 2K. If you export all material from RedCine at 2K then all you need is Prospect 2K.

But if you want to maintain some 4K material for certain effects work (like zooms) then you might want Prospect 4K. P4K will allow you to export from RedCine at up to 4K for the shots that need it, even if most of your material is 2K. You can intermix both 2K and 4K material on the Prospect timeline without a problem. But at the time of render, all new renders will be at the spatial resolution of the project settings.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

Is it correct to assume that cineform footage rendered at 480 - 720 - 1080 will be faster than that at 4K?

Also do you support Color Finesse? If so, can I expect the same latitude and flexibility as I would with DPX files?

Thanks

Jay

 

[David Taylor]

David,

Is it correct to assume that cineform footage rendered at 480 - 720 - 1080 will be faster than that at 4K?

Yes. However a 1K decode of a 4K file is almost as fast a full res decode of a 1K file. The main advantage to the 1K file is the file size and disk bandwith required is much lower.

Also do you support Color Finesse? If so, can I expect the same latitude and flexibility as I would with DPX files?

The more accurate question should be - does Color Finesse support 32-bit float yet within Premiere and AE; all 32-bit plug-ins will preserve headroom with CineForm. Color Finesse was planning that upgrade last year.