CineForm News

[Gavin Greenwalt]

while not at all illegal, is certainly just plain old-fashioned bad manners which appears to this interested bystander as a big "read my finger" to Jim's repeated requests to respect RED's development process.

as long as we are talking about basic respect....

he never said, "don't ever do this," what he and rob requested was a short delay.

But that's rewriting history. I have said over and over again. I respect RED's position and requests to wait--for our own good. I respect RED's position that they would prefer we not do this. The only part of all this I have strongly objected to is Jim Jannard's underhanded insinuations that *we're breaking the law*.

If I posted. "I think e is flagrantly violating my copyrights and doesn't keep his business agreements." I think you would be upset as well.

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this. Especially since nobody that I know of has broken any laws. It's FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt designed to push down and supress people with a different opinion. I'm upset by the way RED is handling this, not their position itself.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Jay.. if it makes you feel better im a Premier guy. and a Vegas guy. And an After Effects guy. I'm waiting just like you.

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

Sweeet! So there is hope ( I know, we just need to be patient, but at least there's more hope now).

Some cool things I hope are in CS4

http://www.acvt.com.au/research/videotrace/

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/01/gridiron_flow_r.html

I am getting pumped for CS4, I saw a clip where they showed Inverse Kinematics in flash, and if they've got it in Flash, I'm positive they'll put IK in Ae. Also, flash is 64 bit, so I'm expecting Pr, Ps, Il, and Ae to all be 64 bit! Anyway, I'm way excited that Jared is a Premiere fan.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The high ground

The high ground

Assuming facts presented in this thread are accurate:

David Newman and the folks at Cineform may have laudable goals but there is no escaping one critical thing. RED, the rightful owner of the IP, asked Cineform to wait until the code was ready before building tools for commercial use based on it. They did it anyway. That's wrong.

Jim and RED have not gone scorched earth on this, WOW, that shows great maturity and respect for the community. I tip my hat.

 

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

Man... people need to calm down, let things go... learn to suffer a little... appreciate that we even have this privilege of watching at first hand the process this beautiful piece of blessing is undertaking and stop being so spoiled man... nobody in this company deserves the hassle they are being put through... if you can't edit the way you want to, then move on dudes (or dudets!), if you can’t wait, then go somewhere else and stop messing with OUR investments (though I still don’t know the # on mine, I have one nevertheless)... since when do clients go to a company and HARASS the living daylights out of them for not having something that was never promised to begin with... you ‘all are spoiled and my advise to the Red team is to get out of this foxhole before their morale drops. I thank every single one of you, for though you might never know it, you have given me a hope that was unimaginable in my past. Please don’t listen to these people, thank you for this opportunity. You are all doing a good job and patience is the virtue of the true giants. Think on this, you have touched the lives of others so intensely, that they can’t sleep at night and spend so much time reading and getting excited in this community. Though I recently joined, I have read so much… I am hooked! I am a PC user, but the Red is not about MAC or PC… I’ll use whatever Red says I have in order to get that kind of image in my creative control. The image Red is offering is what I am after, not 3rd party companies; those companies have their own respect for themselves, but if they didn’t want to be a part of this in the beginning and now I do, then the problem is not Red’s, its not the 3rd party, it is mine for I am the one that put myself in the position! ‘nuff said bub…

 

[vsv]

Rob,

I meant that Cineform is starting from REDCODE, an already compressed solution, and then adding their own demosaicing. If they were able to take the RAW feed from the sensor as REDCODE does, and as Cineform does with the SI-2K, then I think the quality of their excellent codec would be obvious. That's all I said. Being the original compressor from the raw source, Cineform is amazingly clean, malleable and high quality. Then again, so is REDCODE.

Jim, eagerly awaiting REDCODE AVI, or whatever you guys decide to call it...

+1!

Congratulation, David Newman! Fantastic job!
Now waiting for SOLID and Cineform Cam

 

[Steve Freebairn]

I will help you with PC - that is what we run Scratch on.

And I can get you much Adobe love if you want it - let's talk Monday.

Mark, can you get me some Adobe love if I freak out? (serious, I'll do whatever it takes)

 

[planet e]

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this.

i can see where that would push your buttons, but i don't think you would have heard the evil "L" word uttered if cineform had not rejected their initial requests. it is great to see that they have come to an agreement from this thread, but it does seem to have done a bit of damage.

other folks have developed and offered alternative tools but respected RED's requests to delay the release of those tools, and the whole issue just went away each time it came up...but i would add, none of those threads were deleted. most of those were good-will offers from individuals, not an actual product issued by a corporate entity. which is probably why they went away.

everyone has had equal opportunity to e-mail those folks and get access to those tools on the side. this moved what was already probably happening at the level of agreements between friends (and conceivably could have stayed that way quite amenably...) to a public commercial space. atlas shrugged.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The whole issue just went away each time it came up...but i would add, none of those threads were deleted.

That's not true. *THE* Redcode thread that I started and was working in is completely gone never to be seen again. Not just small thread with one to two posts I think 10-20 pages.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, can you get me some Adobe love if I freak out? (serious, I'll do whatever it takes)

Please don't freak out.

Please re-read THIS -

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7678&highlight=deep+breath

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Please don't freak out.

Please re-read THIS -

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7678&highlight=deep+breath

I was totally kidding, I'm actually really calm. I read that post and enjoyed it the first time.

I was more just getting at that I would love to have the nda knowledge that I've heard hinted at from some.

I'm a big PC Adobe fan, but I can see why Red is going apple first, every other big A later (it just stinks adobe wasn't smart enough to listen). More of the people that will be using our camera will be mac based, and I'd rather have them have it easy and smooth than me personally, since I can be patient.

It sounded like you might be telling Jay some good info about upcoming Adobe support or something great like that, that is what I'd being willing to throw a fit for

 

[Bob England]

Now, about those 500-600 cameras for February... :wink:

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

The only part of all this I have strongly objected to is Jim Jannard's underhanded insinuations that *we're breaking the law*.

If I posted. "I think e is flagrantly violating my copyrights and doesn't keep his business agreements." I think you would be upset as well.

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this.

Gavin, let me preface this by saying that I've always respected your knowledge and substantive contributions to this forum. I'm only going to respond to this because I hope to spare Jim and company the task of responding on his own behalf, usurping valuable time that I would certainly prefer be spent building cameras.

Please point to the post where Jim says ANYTHING like what you have attributed to him above.

From post # 70 in this thread, he stated:

Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

From post # 102:

Jay... we are momentarily taking something away that should never have been. I was reminded that Cineform was told of the agreements last December and they chose to ignore our request for restraint even with the promise of being included when we were done. We are working on Command Line tools for PC. But if you are asking us to ignore our agreements, you are truly missing a major point in our business ethic.

And, perhaps most apropos, from post 128:

Maybe I should speak more loudly?

We want a community that can add value to RED in every way possible. But we have agreements in place for certain things. We should have just locked the code down until we were done and then opened it up properly. We didn't do that because we didn't anticipate this happening. We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access". That has always been the plan. But having it opened prematurely just isn't good for the community. We are radically changing our code... Build 14.

We told Cineform this in December and expected them to honor our request. They didn't. So here we are. It doesn't change our fundamental philosophy. Why would we encourage it now when we aren't done?

We have been working on the camera, RED Alert!, REDCINE, Command Line tools, accessories, and communication in the most open way possible. We have acknowledged every error and responded to every valid criticism and suggestion in the fastest way possible. People at RED are awake all night trying to serve our customers. But this situation is just not right. If you consider this a failure on this issue... this is the very 1st time we will adamantly disagree. Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community.

We WILL support PC, Windows, Adobe, Avid (assuming they really want us to) and Linux. We will support 3rd parties in every way reasonably possible. But jeez... give us a tiny break.

Jim

I added emphasis on the bolded portions to hilight what should be obvious: Jim was talking about the obligations HIS company has to HIS partners and what implications the actions of Cineform have on whether HE and HIS company are breaching THEIR OWN obligations. The key to it all was when he stated that they should have just "locked the code down" and then opened it up later when things were finished but that he "didn't anticipate" Cineform or 3rd parties jumping the gun like they had even when asked nicely not to. Right there you see that he is stating that he fears he may have been too damned trusting and courteous by (presumably) not encrypting the code and by allowing public betas of his software, thus practically facilitating early reverse engineering by 3rd parties that would have the same effect as an outright breach of his exclusive agreements.

What is so hard to understand or accept about his position? There is not one accusation that Cineform "broke the law" (and CERTAINLY not that you did) but rather that HE (or RED) broke their own contractual obligation to their partners by opening the code before the expiration of those contracts. Whether or not those partners consider Cineform's actions a tortious interference with their contractual relationship or other business tort was never put on the table by Jim Jannard. So your continued accusation that he has somehow libeled you is patently false and unfair.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It sounded like you might be telling Jay some good info about upcoming Adobe support or something great like that, that is what I'd being willing to throw a fit for

Don't get too excited yet. I am gonna speak to Jay next week and see if I can help him find a solid workflow that fits his needs right now. For the record, I am actually NOT under an Adobe NDA at this moment - but I am meeting some Adobe folks next week and I hope to change that - I am going to do what I can to help Jay regardless. No promises other than I will do my best.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Based on the tone of the comments immediately proceeding Jim's statement I would wager that his statements were clearly open to the interpretation that there were vailed legal threats against anybody decoding REDCode files.

Which is why my first post immediately following his was to the effect:

"Please clarify your position as soon as possible so that people don't get the wrong idea."

People started getting the wrong idea (hell even LUKI is still advancing the "You're all a bunch of H4X0R5" line.)

I'm just getting fed up with RED tossing out a vague comment and then encouraging the troops as they run with it. Jim should have come out and set things right immediately. You start something, it's your job to set it right. And if he won't I will stand up and defend myself and others.

You, Me, Jim, David--everybody is looking out for their own interests and I understand that. But if Jim isn't going to defend me, I'm not going to sit back and just let people run around making accusations and assumptions.

 

[Casey Green]

I really think I need a break from Reduser.

Whatever happened to calm, intelligent discussion??

Jay had a melt down. It happens to the best of us.

Is this really worth turning into another pissing contest and a PC vs mac thing ...

gimme a break! There are more interesting things to discuss on other threads!!

I am not going to close this because I am a participant in the thread - but if another MOD wants to close it down - I'd be happy as well.

I agree with the idea that this thread has run it's course.

Cineform jumped the gun (with the good intention of helping their customer base), Jay praised them in hopes that it would convince RED to approve it, RED was not ready and reminded everyone that they are willing to work with Cineform, just after their previous agreements have sunset and REDCODE is finished.

Now we are starting to discuss legality, which is not our area of concern, but REDs.

I put my vote in to close the thread. (Lets revisit this topic in 2-3 weeks.)

Sound good?

 

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

I agree with the idea that this thread has run it's course.

Cineform jumped the gun (with the good intention of helping their customer base), Jay praised them in hopes that it would convince RED to approve it, RED was not ready and reminded everyone that they are willing to work with Cineform, just after their previous agreements have sunset and REDCODE is finished.

Now we are starting to discuss legality, which is not our area of concern, but REDs.

I put my vote in to close the thread. (Lets revisit this topic in 2-3 weeks.)

Sound good?

I vote to close the thread as well.

 

[David Newman]

Closing is fine for CineForm also. We submitted our proposal to the Red team late this morning and look forward to their feedback.

 

[Ariana]

RED is likely the most wide-open development process in the history of American capitalism. the amount of information they disclose is jaw-dropping. RED has no obligation to disclose its partnerships. and they certainly can't do this without partnerships.

Many people find this very refreshing. Will RED be forced into a defensive postion to protect their IP? Lose-Lose all around.

Ariana

 

[Who ME]

Closing is fine for CineForm also. We submitted our proposal to the Red team late this morning and look forward to their feedback.

This may be best sent to closed land at this point.
I don’t think the legal armchair quarterbacking is good in the open, on a very speculative Forum.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I keep reading this thread and also think the thread has run its course.