Cineform as a Tiered Partner

[Finner]

5 camera sales do not come close to honoring our commitment.

Jim

5 that I know of. I am sure there are many more. A persons word is worth more then money though and I respect that. When will the commitment to the other companies be over?

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

Jim I personally know of 5 people that camera #'s have come up and are holding off until a reasonable workflow becomes available. I would think there are a huge number of others also holding out. Seems to me like the exclusive vendor strategy is detrimental to your camera sales. I could be wrong on this thinking but it just seems like red is getting the short end of the stick on this deal.

I'm holding out on an order of 8 cameras because of this... I haven't even placed the order yet. Just making sure I don't dive in before things are fully working for Avid; Because I could go elsewhere to have a solid workflow for my feature. I'm just hoping things are settled by April, or else I'm going to start looking at other cameras.

 

[Jannard]

I'm holding out on an order of 8 cameras because of this... I haven't even placed the order yet. Just making sure I don't dive in before things are fully working for Avid; Because I could go elsewhere to have a solid workflow for my feature. I'm just hoping things are settled by April, or else I'm going to start looking at other cameras.

It wouldn't matter if it were 1000 cameras. Our word is our bond.

We do expect to have an Avid, Adobe and others solution this year. Our commitment doesn't run forever...

But we also need to finish our development before we release an SDK.

It is a matter of principle for us. We don't need the sales so much as to compromise our ethics. If that means we lose a sale (or 1000) to another company, so be it.

Jim

 

[paul engstrom]

one of the reasons i purchased a camera (and accessories! $$) from RED is because of my perception of trustworthiness and transparency on their part which, in the long-term, will benefit me hugely.

this recent delay on the software side, while a bit frustrating for me, in the big picture is encouraging. how many times have i seen people get sloppy with the foundation, jeapardizing the whole house.

i hate software bugs and computer work-arounds. i am a computer glitch. it seems to me RED's keeping their eye on the 'strong foundation' path at a time when it would be more convenient to let go, so that, in the end, our workflows work really, really good. rotten for a little while longer, but then a long time of pay off.

honoring commitments, when it might be nice to let them go, has the same effect, for me, of upping my trust level.

my 2c
p

 

[Poi Boy]

"it is a matter of principle for us. We don't need the sales so much as to compromise our ethics. If that means we lose a sale (or 1000) to another company, so be it."

Jim


right on #1 !
Aloha
-A

 

[Edgar Pitts]

These are two entirely different things:

1.) Exclusive Agreements That Have A Term
2.) Development Time & Resources To Finish SDK

What does one have to do with the other?

No one is asking you to break your word or contracts. We are asking for some kind of time frame so that we can plan accordingly. It was "at or around NAB" and now it "sometime this year".

 

[Thor Wixom]

Jim,

Sincerely, with all due respect...

When I signed up at NAB 2006, nowhere on the purchase agreement did it say I would have to buy a Mac to edit the footage from my camera. In fact, one of my main questions before making my reservation was PC compatibility. At the time, I would not have reserved a camera if I thought for a moment it would involve having to buy a Mac to edit footage. At the booth, I was left with the impression that when the camera was ready to ship, Mac AND Windows worflows would be in place. Is it possible someone spoke out of turn? Is it possible my memory is foggy? Yes to both, but I still signed a purchase agreement with RED, not Apple and Red. So from my perspective, it's hard not to feel like a commitment was broken.

-Thor

 

[Jarred Land]

Closing threads smacks of censorship.

Although some people weren't using their best manners, I think they assumed it was valuable for Red to hear from their customers whether it be glowing praise or the seeds of discontent. Did I miss the announcement about a 'praise only' policy?

Everything that needed to be said was said in that thread.. which is why it was closed.

Crewpix.. you seem to bitch alot, if you don't like it here, there are many other places you can go.

I always find it amusing when people complain about what happens here and how evil and deceitful RED ( or me ) are. I dont go walking into your house, sit on your couch and bitch about the color of your wallpaper then pee all over your windows, THEN yell at you for locking the door when i leave.

 

[Deanan]

These are two entirely different things:

1.) Exclusive Agreements That Have A Term
2.) Development Time & Resources To Finish SDK

What does one have to do with the other?

No one is asking you to break your word or contracts. We are asking for some kind of time frame so that we can plan accordingly. It was "at or around NAB" and now it "sometime this year".

They are both reality. #1 is part of the bigger picture that got us integration when everyone else laughed. #2 is part of development reality that things take time and effort to support properly. As it is we are behind on proper support like 16:9, audio, etc because it takes ALOT of effort to maintain integration with third parties when firmware, features, and file format is changing constantly. Our two current partners are experiencing much grief because so much is changing. We are extremely grateful that they have diligent and patient to keep up with our breakneck rate of change. More partners would equal less support per partner which equals slower support for new features which results in unhappy partners and customers with even fewer options for workflow. At the end of the day everyone looses.

So when things stabilize, the sdk becomes viable, we get more time to support more partners and things progress forward. Every single one of the future partners we've had in depth meetings with agrees with our strategy because they understand what goes into a fast paced development cycle.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jim,

Sincerely, with all due respect...

When I signed up at NAB 2006, nowhere on the purchase agreement did it say I would have to buy a Mac to edit the footage from my camera.

-Thor

At NAB 2006 we made it very clear our first workflow was to be Apple FCP, (and Assimilate), and that other vendors would follow after those developments were complete.

Remember, what you signed up was for at that time was 4k uncompressed shooting out fiber to a bar fridge. Remember that part? I lived it for 6 months.. and trust me, we should all be glad that changed.

 

[Karl H]

Red as a whole saw a gap in the market, realised they could do it better and cheaper. they filled it. Bravo.

I hope when the agreements are over they do team up with cineform. because this is exactly the same philosophy but in a different market.

What other solution offers real-time raw or 4:4:4 at 4K playback on a timeline with export or manipulation in virtually any application? Cross platform too.

I just caved in and bought an 8 core mac for my Red workflow, and with that I'm getting stuttery playback of medium res files on an FCP timeline. I cant import 16:9, if i go through redcine then I have to wait a long time and the best I get is 2K 4:2:2 for realtime editing. So if i need to heavy CC or key, im back to uncompressed tiffs in redcine.... While that isnt terrible, there is big gap between what Red/apple offers and what cineform does for the indie film-maker. If Red had seen the opportunity here during development I think we'd all be in a much better situation right now.

This isnt against Red, they are honouring agreements, but come on folks whatever they signed with Apple they just cannot have the best quality and fastest workflow on PC with cineform, it would almost be embarrasing after all the work they've done exclusively with apple. In fact it would be more than embarrasing..... That's why the code is locked. It's all politics. But they have no choice until these terms are over. I just hope once they are, they pounce on cineform. Anything less would be a wasted opportunity.

it'll never happen but if Red shot to cineform directly in-camera then you'd have a perfect workflow straight out of the box on mac AND pc. But of course that probably means a slightly more expensive camera for them to licence the code. (or maybe not as they wouldnt have to spend any R&D on redcode)

how amazing would that have been? Perhaps if Red had seen this opportunity earlier then things would be different. As it stands they must work with apple and try to get it the best they can before the PC is allowed in the game. Thats a shame, but it's just the way it is. the deal is done.

 

[planet e]

Our word is our bond.
We do expect to have an Avid, Adobe and others solution this year. Our commitment doesn't run forever...
It is a matter of principle for us. We don't need the sales so much as to compromise our ethics.

at the end of the day, this is where i want to put my dollars. for every 5 cameras that you lose on lagging workflow issues...with language like this and the will to back it up in the face of hard criticism...you gain a thousand new sales.

waiting for the fedex man to ring my bell this morning and drop off a few boxes and my spanky new camera...and all i can feel is gratitude for the magnificent achievement that this camera represents. i want a workflow that unlocks all of its secrets, not just some of them, but as long as these folks are at the helm, it will arrive--just not in my perfect time frame--but it will arrive.

thank you to Jim, Nate Heartt--my boy on the Bomb Squad, and the entire RED team.

 

[Andrew M.]

Could someone explain to me why we can’t just fix REDCINE for PC platform to be more stable so we can get full 12 bit (16bit workflow) out of Misterium?

Obviously FCP is not delivering 12+ bit path at this moment.
SCRATCH can deliver this but cost 50K+

REDCINE have to be fixed to be more stable and this will fix the problem for now.
Then we can wait one year or so for SDK and Adobe support.
If I can get stable 16 bit TIF or 10 bit log DPX out of REDCINE on PC platform I will be more than happy. Give me QT H.264 and it will be icing on the cake.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

That's an excellent point Andrew....If Redcine would just function on PC like you said, a lot of us would probably not be "bitching".... Does Assimilate write Redcine?

 

[Andrew M.]

Yes, Assimilate writes REDCINE and SCRATCH so they have potential conflict of interests here. But potential SCRATCH clients will never even come close to consider Adobe/ CineForm solution, so if Assimilate thinks that giving people the path to $2000 workflow will impact 50K+ software sale the marketing guy there is wrong. (smo&%$g d*^%p)

How many times I have heard that SCRATCH Light for $2-$5 K has no market.
SCRATCH is studios and editing houses workflow, not Indie one.

see this one
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9346

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Wow... I woke up this morning and saw all the energy and madness had come right back to this subject. And without me making it worse! (That's a change).

Guys it comes down to this.. And read carefully cause these are facts and there is no changing them:

Will RED support Adobe? Yes.. Jim said.. No doubt
Will RED support Cineform? Yes... Jim said... No doubt.
Will RED open to other 3rd party people? Yes Jim said... No doubt.

Ok so that's fact.. Here's the sticky..

WHEN!?

Don't know. Here's what we DO KNOW:

RED's agreements, as I understand it, END at NAB '08.
I WOULD GUESS after this they would be allowed to speak more of their plans and intents with other companies. To do so now would be bad form.

Then RED MUST finish the SDK and they will be able to support 3rd party vendors.

When will that happen?
They don't know.. Or perhaps they are finally learning that giving a deadline that they will most likely miss does no one any good. Jim is not thrilled with being late for everything, it's not fun, and they don't like it. He knows (From what I understand) how important this subject is, after all it's the single largest "bitch" subject (Of which I am frequently a part!) on the forum.

And while all this is going on, a LOT of you are losing money because you cannot deliver footage.. There is no more serious problem than that.

A lot of you feel betrayed and let down. I did as well, and I got myself in hot water because of it and said somethings I regret.

Like you, I wish something could be done on a temporary basis AFTER NAB. I would love is if RED could adopt Cineform as a lead developer and say "YOU GUYS CAN USE THE COMMAND LINE, BUT DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK... DO NOT CALL RED FOR SUPPORT!" I know Cineform would support this, but....

I don't think this will happen. I cannot tell you why. Honestly I don't know.

I know there are problems keeping up with the SDK.. But it would be a cool idea if AFTER build 16 RED could allow Cineform to make a command line for THAT BUILD ONLY. You would just have to know that if you upgraded to a newer build after that, it would most likely not work.

Bottom line is that there will be support issues even when the SDK is all done. I know this because the SDK will be based on the newer r3d builds, and I can promise you that some users will try to make things run on older builds of firmware.. Why I do not know... They just will.

Aside from EVFs and perhaps even more so, there is no more serious outstanding issue in regards to the operation and workflow of this camera than it's post problems. You know it, RED knows it.

We HAVE to believe if there was a way for them to get a quick solution then they would. I still have faith they will. I really do.

Our perspective is controlled largely by our needs, and they are serious in this area. So it's hard for us to understand why there is not a solution when we have already seen it.

This is a complex issue. While it may be simple from our perspective, it's not. RED cannot give us what we may want or need right now in this area. But as I was told "It would be crazy for us not to support our third party vendors!"

If you feel the need to continue to yell about this and complain, I understand. But know, that at this time, we've made our point. We've been heard loud and clear. RED understands, but they are going to do this their way on their schedule.

It's ok for us to not like this.. But we are going to have to live with it. One way or the other, and more "heated posts" (Even from me) will not make a difference.

These are the facts.

Jay

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Yes, Assimilate writes REDCINE and SCRATCH[/url]

Well then they are doing a pretty poor job with Redcine......... We are not asking for any of the functions or features of Scratch....I just want a stable way to output and convert footage. Is that really asking too much from an application stand point? For now I will wait until after NAB08 before doing any real projects with our REDs....I sure hope we will not be stuck with the same buggy software from Assimilate after that....

 

[Andrew M.]

What I see in REDCINE logs, there are mostly OpenGL out of memory errors or just failed to initialize buffer.

Since guys use extensive in house library developed throughout the years for pretty closed SCRATCH systems, at present based on NVIDIA older versions, mostly Quadro, the support of NVIDIA 8700 or 8800 is not extensively tested there.

It is completly different ball game to develop for multiple systems based on a different video cards and systems based on the few picks.
Optimization will be difficult and the interaction with the different video drivers has to be retested over and over again. At minimum I expect NVIDIA Quatro, 8700 and 8800 to be supported.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

And that's where after they have honored their agreements, RED will need to work with another third party that is more experienced than Assimilate with open systems... :shifty:

 

[Thor Wixom]

At NAB 2006 we made it very clear our first workflow was to be Apple FCP, (and Assimilate), and that other vendors would follow after those developments were complete.

Remember, what you signed up was for at that time was 4k uncompressed shooting out fiber to a bar fridge. Remember that part? I lived it for 6 months.. and trust me, we should all be glad that changed.

Jarred,

To my recollection, Apple and Assimiliate were NAB 2007 announcements. I could be wrong... and if I am, I concede.

-Thor