Cineform as a Tiered Partner

[Edgar Pitts]

For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

I am a little dismayed that the Tiered Partner thread was closed so quickly. You were getting an honest response from your userbase.

Why would it be so difficult to add Cineform as a current tiered partner??????

We have one case study so far: the Cineform R3D2DPX solution. It was posted Jan. 16 2008: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=138517#post138517

Later that day, Graeme pointed out the image quality shortcomings with the third-party debayer, complete with still frame examples. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=138650&postcount=23 ...after seeing that comparison, many redusers spoke up and said R3D2DPX was poor quality, and they would not use it.

The following day, 1/17 David responded with an updated R3D2DPX version http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139204&postcount=86
complete with other still frame examples. I'm not going to comment myself on what those still frame examples showed but look at them yourself, if you like.

At that point, Jim objected to the existence of R3D2DPX and there were quite a few rather emotional posts. The following day, 1/18, R3D2DPX was withdrawn, and the thread was closed. So ended that short chapter in RED history. What can we learn from it?

Probably lots of things, but the one I'd like to highlight is that development of useful tools can proceed very rapidly, if given the chance.

They clearly need very little Red resources, as they have been doing this for a long time. I don't see the issue with adding them unless this has to do with agreements with Apple and Assimilate. In that case...

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

If anyone is going to give us good PC workflow it's going to be Cineform for sure! In my opinion it would be more of an asset for RED to work with Cineform than Assimilate....

 

[Jannard]

We fully expect Cineform to have the SDK when we are ready.

Jim

 

[Edgar Pitts]

It is quite clear that they do not need your SDK at all. What gives?????

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Closing threads smacks of censorship.

Although some people weren't using their best manners, I think they assumed it was valuable for Red to hear from their customers whether it be glowing praise or the seeds of discontent. Did I miss the announcement about a 'praise only' policy?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Censorship?

Censorship?

Discussion of the manner in which RED chooses to do business with 3rd parties may be rollicking good fun - BUT - hosting such discussions on RedUser is a lot to ask. Issues about the camera itself, RA, RC, etc - even those that are less than positive, may have rankled some of the principles at RED but in general they have been tolerated on RedUser.

I don't think its fair to play the censorship card on this one.

Peace - Blair

 

[Joel Kaye]

Yeah, these guys don't censor much. And they have the right to do whatever they want here. Forums aren't a democracy. I can empathize with their situation. I'm willing to cut 'em some slack.

 

[Emery Wells]

Guys, this is how SDKs work. RED wants to have a stable platform before opening it up and they clearly have many changes in the works. You will get better third party support with a stable and solid SDK from RED VS a hack. I think we ought to remember that this is also their baby. They want to do it right and they want it to be ready before others start tinkering. Not only that but they have been completely transparent about their business relationships with Apple and Assimilate. I don't think a lot of companies were jumping at the chance to work with them a few years ago.

If they wanted to stay a closed system forever Id be upset too but in the meantime, lets let them focus on building and stabilizing a great camera.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

As someone who has moderated several forums over the years, there is one thing I hate more than almost anything else that users can complain about... Censorship. I didn't close the thread in question, I think Deanan did, but that doesn't matter... I'm still offended when people start playing the censorship card. None of this discussion has been censored. That thread was closed because it was getting out of hand, I don't think anyone could deny that. I know people are starving for a solid post workflow -- especially the Windows crowd. But RED just isn't ready with their tools. I'm as anxious as anyone for a solid post solution that is affordable and PC or Mac doesn't matter to me. But I'm also a software developer myself and I respect RED's decision to want their tool set and SDK to be at a certain level before releasing it.

I think many people read too much between the lines in Jim's post. He was announcing a delay. A delay that, if it were related to camera hardware or a firmware build, everyone would have given him and the RED team the usual virtual pat on the back. He made a brief attempt at mentioning tiered development plans... IMO, it sounds very promising. This is stuff that is COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF in this industry!

Like I said, I'm desperate for a better post workflow situation. It's unfortunate that over 1000 serial numbers have come up (who knows how many of those RED has actually shipped) and the workflow still has the camera hog-tied to a lackluster, largely incomplete and buggy workflow on the Mac or a very expensive and still buggy workflow on Windows via SCRATCH.

But on the flip side of things, anyone who has the camera knew about this going into it. If they didn't, then they weren't paying attention. I'm still shocked that people will spend $20K or more on a camera, but become completely tight-assed and bull-headed when it comes to setting themselves up with a usable workflow. Just like every other aspect of RED camera development, the software side has obviously had its share of set-backs. I have no doubt that these issues will work themselves out in time and more workflow solutions will present themselves. RED says they are working to support Avid, Adobe and others. They have said since the beginning (well, since NAB '07) that the Apple workflow will come first. No secret there. They have never promised when it will be fully functional. The state of the workflow has never been a secret... I have to wonder why people who are deadlocked by the current workflow feel they have to be. And if they truly are due to budget or political constraints, then why did they buy their camera now instead of waiting for the proper workflow solution to materialize?

Rant over..

 

[Jannard]

We had a call today from a user wanting to know why the Cineform "R3D tool" doesn't work with Build 15 footage. This is exactly why we don't want "tools" out before we are done. This seems pretty easy to understand.

Jim

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim,

For the record, I am not involved in this discussion... Try to contain your shock!



Jay

 

[Frank Weeks]

ok... I understand the possible problems that could arise and I am trying to be patient with the workflow issue. I have been waiting and lurking since last fall waiting for some assurance that a small shop like mine would be able to deal with the workflow. I would prefer to work with Avid or PS3. FCP is not out of the question but, as I understand it, Apple has real limitations with Red as well.

Please understand that I admire the camera and the people that have managed to create it, but this is the way I have to make a living. Nobody will care how beautiful the images are if I can not deliver them on time.

As my camera is set for the near future it is my #1 concern. The other bells and whistles are great but with no solid workflow....

My instinct tells me that NAB will offer big things on the FCP workflow. Just my guess. But today’s thread about opening the code to others is difficult to hear.

I know Red is in a tough spot but it puts many of us in a tough spot as well.
The camera is great. That’s a given. The workflow however?????



Frank

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

ok... I understand the possible problems that could arise and I am trying to be patient with the workflow issue. I have been waiting and lurking since last fall waiting for some assurance that a small shop like mine would be able to deal with the workflow. I would prefer to work with Avid or PS3. FCP is nor out of the question but, as I understand it, Apple has real limitations with Red as well.

Please understand that I admire the camera and the people that have managed to create it, but this is the way I have to make a living. No body will care how beautiful the images are if I can not deliver them on time.

As my camera is set for the near future it is my #1 concern. The other bells and whistles are great but with no solid workflow....

My instinct tells me that NAB will offer big things on the FCP workflow. Just my guess. But today’s thread about opening the code to others is difficult to hear.

I know Red is in a tough spot but it puts many of us in a tough spot as well.
The camera is great. That’s a given. The workflow however?????



Frank

I think you've sumed up a lot of people's thoughts and feelings on this issue Frank. And I am more sure than I have been in the past that RED hears you. They know this is important. They are getting there as fast at they can.

It's current agreements end NAB 08, and they must finish the SDK.. They all will be cool
Jay

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I think in general the complain is not about the fact that RED would like to have their SDK ready before releasing to third party, but I think a lot of us were hoping that RED would at least work with one third party that would help them have an intermediate workflow until they workout all the bugs. Having Cineform as a partner (along with Assimilate) would have been great and would have made much more sense...they (cineform) obviously know what they are doing and could easily keep up with the different firmware/builds and provide us, the users, with a decent workflow in the meantime.....

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think in general the complain is not about the fact that RED would like to have their SDK ready before releasing to third party, but I think a lot of us were hoping that RED would at least work with one third party that would help them have an intermediate workflow until they workout all the bugs. Having Cineform as a partner (along with Assimilate) would have been great and would have made much more sense...they (cineform) obviously know what they are doing and could easily keep up with the different firmware/builds and provide us, the users, with a decent workflow in the meantime.....

You make a lot of sense. I wish I knew what to tell you.

Jay

 

[Jannard]

Jim,

For the record, I am not involved in this discussion... Try to contain your shock!



Jay

It wasn't you... it was a renter that was "given" the Cineform "tools".

Jim

 

[Jannard]

I think in general the complain is not about the fact that RED would like to have their SDK ready before releasing to third party, but I think a lot of us were hoping that RED would at least work with one third party that would help them have an intermediate workflow until they workout all the bugs. Having Cineform as a partner (along with Assimilate) would have been great and would have made much more sense...they (cineform) obviously know what they are doing and could easily keep up with the different firmware/builds and provide us, the users, with a decent workflow in the meantime.....

We have agreements that we will honor...

Jim

 

[Finner]

Jim I personally know of 5 people that camera #'s have come up and are holding off until a reasonable workflow becomes available. I would think there are a huge number of others also holding out. Seems to me like the exclusive vendor strategy is detrimental to your camera sales. I could be wrong on this thinking but it just seems like red is getting the short end of the stick on this deal.

 

[donatello b]

" Having Cineform as a partner (along with Assimilate) would have been great and would have made much more sense...they (cineform) obviously know what they are doing and could easily keep up with the different firmware/builds and provide us, the users, with a decent workflow in the meantime....."'

hummm .. it's all water under the bridge now ...
but it seems -i think it was fall 2006 ? Red & Cineform were having some type of discussions ??? guessing by several post back then something happened and those discussions came to a end ....
so guessing, either they couldn't work out a deal or a better deal came along ?? or i/m was just reading doo doo between the lines of those post back then ...

So, will that all be covered in the history/development of Red when the Doc is made ?

 

[Jannard]

Jim I personally know of 5 people that camera #'s have come up and are holding off until a reasonable workflow becomes available. I would think there are a huge number of others also holding out. Seems to me like the exclusive vendor strategy is detrimental to your camera sales. I could be wrong on this thinking but it just seems like red is getting the short end of the stick on this deal.

5 camera sales do not come close to honoring our commitment.

Jim