Christian Filmmakers?

[Joseph Hutson]

Guys, this is some REALLY good stuff. Thanks!

 

[Jason Rodriguez]

I can't agree that a direct Christian message will automatically negate any of its potentials in being a good movie... I can't agree that in order for a Christian movie to be good, it needs to be ambigous in context...

I think the problem with those who avoid ambiguity or "subtext" (I think that's a much better term), is that it's typically substituted with rhetoric, or what we more commonly like to refer to "preaching at us".

Movies are the core are dramatic . . . Pathos. Not rhetoric. Although retorical points can be made, as you have pointed out, the real connection stories make with us is on an emotional and empathetic level.

The logic of a movie is the logic of our experience. When it becomes something more than that then we're always gonna feel like someone is drilling something down our throats.

 

[jpp]

The question that needs to be answered is this: How can we- through cinema, bring our audience to a point of empathy with our characters that they wish upon them what we lead them to believe to be the "center of good."

I promised not to return here, but the answer to your question is screaming aloud. Besides, with 4000+ views, I think people are expecting some drama by now.

We know exactly how to make people believe what we want them to believe. It's called propaganda and it's a well established field with well-established techniques, and it produces wonderful results (for those doing it). Just look at the American consumer and the American voter.

Which takes us back to what's so wrongheaded about this thread, in my humble view. Unless you're claiming that your work is divinely inspired, or that the term is just a euphemism for sermonizing, there is no such thing as "Christian Filmmaking". There are self-described Christians, though that term can mean vastly different things to different Christians. And there are filmmakers. But if you're in the business of persuading people of "One Love, One God and only One way!" to quote Irdyabyss, then filmmaking and art are not your primary interest. It's that simple. Art is so hard to master, that you couldn't hope to do both, even if you had 3 lifetimes.

On rare occasions, a work of indoctrination or with explicit religious subject matter can succeed as art, despite itself. But nobody goes to Bach or Michelangelo for religious instruction, and I very much doubt that anyone here is working on the level of Bach or Michelangelo.

There are plenty of secular films, many from the European art-house tradition, with what one might call Christian subtexts, some quite effective and of deep interest even to outright atheists. But of course these filmmakers were not interested in conversion or expanding the church or the pool of saved souls. They desire nothing from the audience (except maybe a ticket purchase). And, in fact, some lived the lives of monks, rigorous and austere. We're talking about some very great films. These films may be godless, but they're still religious in nature.

Maybe there's a lesson here, if I can use a parable. Could it be that the answer is humility, to stop desiring so much, to learn to control your own desires for glory and conversion, before trying to control someone else's? Maybe you guys need to abandon the vanity of this endeavor, of thinking you have all the answers, that you know so much more than those who decline to embrace your faith, if you want to make good films.

 

[Brian Langeman]

Jpp. Your posts are anything but humble. The fact that you talked about your humble view was really ironic when you look at every post that you've made. We haven't thrown any punches at you, or anyone else. When Christians here have spoken to you and other secular views, it's only been to correct how they've interpreted our teachings when they don't believe in them to begin with.

4000+ views doesn't mean people want drama. Maybe people are interested, and that's not a bad thing. We didn't start this thread and start preaching to the masses. YOU are the one who wants drama, and you've even said you want it shut down, cause you want us to be silent. Though you may want to believe it, there is no propaganda here. We're simply people who are living our lives the way we believe we should live them, just like you.

No one on here has said that they want to control anyone else. You keep putting words into other people's mouths. We don't claim do know so much more than everyone else either. We're all human beings, just like you. We don't have desires for glory, as has been said, pride is not something that we want in our lives. And we don't expect any product that we make to convert anyone, just to bring about discussions. We don't claim our work is divinely inspired, though some of it may be. And we definitely have said that if we're Christians filmmaking is not our number one priority.

To the moderators here. Please don't censor us, cause that's clearly what people like jpp are trying to do. I would suggest that if another post like the previous one is made that you could just delete it. Because we can't control if jpp or someone else wants to start a debate over what we believe. And before you start saying jpp that that would just be censoring you, I don't care if you start up your own thread that is saying we're all hypocrits or something. You can say whatever you want about us, but you don't need to take this thread off topic to do it.

As for favourite movie with a Christian message. I would say Lord Of The Rings, even though you might say it's an allegory. It isn't exactly, at least not as much as Narnia. JRR Tolkein even said somewhere that it wasn't an allegory. I love the subject matter of it a lot, which is similar to Narnia, but it's more aimed at adults.

 

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

We know exactly how to make people believe what we want them to believe. It's called propaganda and it's a well established field with well-established techniques, and it produces wonderful results (for those doing it)

Thank you so much for your response... and I do appreciate your return to the Thread... I respect that. The reason why I put the term center of good within quotations is because it is a term that I learned from a script writting book and seminar that I attended... Robert McKee, who I believe is extremely well versed in the history and processes of Filmmaking. If you don't know who he is, please allow me to clarify... no, he isn't trying to propagate Christianity. However, what he discussed in his book and seminar is that everyone of us as an audience is automatically attracted toward characters to hold this center and as I have commented before, I believe it is worth repeating here... all of this is relative to the story. He states that at a minimum, the protagonist should hold this magnetic force in order for us to empathize with him. I am well aware of the powers behind subtext and your points on this were very good... subtext is the place where cinema grows inside of us.

I believe that you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say, but yet again in your own words you agreed with it. Subtext is the influential power that we use to lure the hearts of those watching our creation. I will stay away from your personal opinions and not comment on them; though you do seem to have a lot of expirience on the matter.

I believe that all the principles that construct a well made movie apply to Christian Films and whenever someone is caught up trying to say something, that is the point at which the magic is lost and nothing is said at the end.

 

[jpp]

Jpp. Your posts are anything but humble. The fact that you talked about your humble view was really ironic

It was supposed to be ironic. I'm not so humorless as to be blind to the inevitable extremes of these kinds of discussions, my language included. Next time I'll put in a smiley?

When Christians here have spoken to you and other secular views, it's only been to correct how they've interpreted our teachings when they don't believe in them to begin with.

This is exactly what bugs the hell out of me. When you say "Christians" don't you mean members of the evangelical church and don't you mean to exclude all other Christians, not to mention the rest of humanity? Aren't you saying, in effect, "I'm saved and you're damned"? And didn't you in fact say that we're all damned, except for Christians who share your beliefs? That's what I hear, every time you use the word "Christian", or a new member comes on and identifies himself as a Christian: I'm saved, you're damned. Why is there a need for this constant assertion of status and identity, in a public forum like this? How does it add to the value of the discussion, except to put everyone else's back up?

YOU are the one who wants drama, and you've even said you want it shut down, cause you want us to be silent.

That's not quite true. I do believe this is the wrong place for this kind of discussion. And I'm not the only one. However, if it's going to take place, you have to expect to challenges, and the moderators should allow challenges. If you want a private room to talk among yourselves, find a private room.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Actually, all cinema is a lie.

But as the Russian filmmaker Konchalovsky says, some lies could be elevating...

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Ok. We're done here for the time being. As Jeff suggested, start again in a few days.

Romans 12:17-18

Lucas