Challenge to Zacuto...

[Paul Schneider]

But the problem is no is going to watch this and judge the dp. They are gong to see How the dp lit it and judge the camera.

DPs are worse than 8th grade girls, they gossip like crazy. An unforunately tests like these get throw in the rumor mill as representations of cameras. Deakins could light something
On an iPhone that would look incredible. But is that reason for every other dp to start shooting features on iPhones? No.

If u can't make a fair test, based solely on a camera performing in iys natural element, then don't do one.

If it werent for crap like this DPs would do their own tests. Unfortunately, even those that do have preconceived biases because of these 'shootouts' and the industry suffers as a result.

I must say that I disagree with pretty much this entire statement and the assumptions that drive it...especially given that no one has seen the project yet.

 

[paulherrin]

Lol, good joke!

This gets at an interesting issue that I rarely see addressed head on, and that is... does DP = camera guy or does DP = "God of Light and Shadows"? To some, both. But so often I see DP being bantered about as merely the guy wanking with the camera, a Master Sgt Videographer if you will. Personally, I love a DP who's primarily concerned with lighting and will allow the camera choice, settings and operation to be a free floating responsibility. So sometimes that means the DP is operating, or maybe the Director is, or maybe a kick ass operator is. Sometimes a DP is well suited to choose the camera, sometimes not. If it was a choice, I'd rather a DP know how to use every item in the G&E trucks then know what menus to operate on camera.

Balance is always good. It gives a DP tremendous advantages to have deep knowledge about his recording device. How would you know how to light if you didn't know what film stock you have? Of course the DP shouldn't be the chief executive camera op. But a good DP controls his light all the way from the solar/electric source all the way to the sensor (and beyond!) That being said, the creative decisions that have little to do with what camera is being used are what really make a DP.

It's about your 'eye' - not technical precision.

 

[Alec Morris]

I must say that I disagree with pretty much this entire statement and the assumptions that drive it...especially given that no one has seen the project yet.

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact the you want to wait until people have 'seen the project' when these cameras have been out for a while now (especially the Alexa and epic, which, let's be honest, are the two important ones) proves why so called 'shootouts' like these can be so damaging

I can tell you that as a professional judging cameras based on their performance in the context of present and future digital acquisition and presentation I don't need to see this test to know it's incredibly flawed. The guidelines tell me as much. If you did a camera test 10 years ago and only watched it on the tv broadcast quality of the time would you be happy with your observations today? Absolutely not. But you'd be stuck with anything you shot back then. Good luck doing a bluray release

 

[Jannard]

Zacuto... Zacuto... where art thou?

Jim

 

[paulherrin]

where, or wherefore? that is the question.

 

[Paul Schneider]

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact the you want to wait until people have 'seen the project' when these cameras have been out for a while now (especially the Alexa and epic, which, let's be honest, are the two important ones) proves why so called 'shootouts' like these can be so damaging

I can tell you that as a professional judging cameras based on their performance in the context of present and future digital acquisition and presentation I don't need to see this test to know it's incredibly flawed. The guidelines tell me as much. If you did a camera test 10 years ago and only watched it on the tv broadcast quality of the time would you be happy with your observations today? Absolutely not. But you'd be stuck with anything you shot back then. Good luck doing a bluray release

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

 

[Jannard]

My problem with the Zacuto tests are:

The camera companies have no control over the processing.

The final results are 2K.

That's about it.

Jim

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

 

[Alec Morris]

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

I didnt mean to say you aren't pro, I assume everyone that posts on here knows what they're talking about to
varying degrees.

My problem is that this test as it's presented does not seem
Like an aid at all. It seems like a judgement of the cameras. And thats how I assume most people will read it. A camera is standard, it's performance doesn't change. DP's vary greatly, and though they seem
To be the variable here they are not what is being judged. The camera is.

Two DPs walk into a bar. One says to the other' "you see the zacuto shootout? Epic didn't have skin tones as well as alexa'. The other DP says 'really?', never sees the test, but in the meeting for his next project says 'epic has crap skintones'. He never knows that the first DP just didn't like the lighting in the epic part of
The test.

Not a very funny joke when I try and convince a producer I wanna use my epic but he doesn't like it because he heard from that DP that the zacuto test showed the epic didn't do well with skin tones. I know that's not their intention, but that's what happens. And I'm just giving an example, it could be the Alexa that's gets lit poorly!

 

[Alec Morris]

It's just like in sports. If my team loses, then so be it. I just don't want the refs to decide the game. I know they don't mean to screw up the calls, but it's still an unfair loss.

Sorry I've been at the airport bar watchin the NBA playoffs. Thunder up!

 

[Josh Snyder]

My problem with the Zacuto tests are:

The camera companies have no control over the processing.

The final results are 2K.

That's about it.

Jim

1:

I did beg to get RED involved with the test long before the challenge started. I sent emails to both Jim and Ted explaining that they could pic their own DP or team to shoot and light the scene any way they wanted and that they would have complete control over their post production. I also explained that they could even take the footage and post process it where ever they wanted and then return it back to us and we would insert it into our show. With no response to the various emails I sent, we made posts on Reduser asking for suggestions of DP's to operate the EPIC...

2:

2K is 2012. 2K is what the audience sees. You provided only 1K and 2K versions of the Tattoo "EPIC Short Film". I think that says it all.

Zacuto shootout is made to show how each camera performs when the films are finished to be seen in 2012 (or upcoming years till the 4K starts becoming more popular).

 

[Josh Snyder]

Jim, would like to see your reply to this gentlemen too:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?78175-Zacuto-Great-Camera-Shootout-and-free-parking!&p=998914&viewfull=1#post998914

I would also like to add that since you think 2K belongs to dvxuser, why did you release Tattoo in here reduser instead of dvxuser since it was finished 1K and 2K?

 

[shashbugu]

It's so funny to me why so many here are so interested in seeing the empirical as if to prove that the EPIC is the best camera period on paper. We don't watch paper, nor does the viewer care. What everyone is missing and you need to see the challenge before you comment is that it doesn't really matter. If you want to learn from industry leaders, see how they went about lighting "LIGHTING" lighting you notice I can't say lighting enough then watch the Shootout. We need to stop talking about cameras, trust me the differences between the cameras was far less important then how each camera master lit for their camera and understood how to light for it. Again resolution is nice, but it won't make anyone buy your movie, TV commercial, corporate film, web series. If you are a director content is king, if you are a DP being able to light with the EPIC to bring your directors vision to life is what you need to worry about, not resolution, their is tons there in 2k or 5k. The EPIC is an amazing camera, no question about it and I hope that you can learn something from this shootout that will help you become better at using it.

All of the other comments I agree with for archival purposes, 5K is nice, for repo 5K is nice (although if you are doing a lot of that, something is not right with you skill). 5K is not for everything, for example my documentary, I'm only playing it on the web or TV, I don't want to have to manage all of the media, I need to be light, fast and agile. I have 100's of hours of footage and need to be able to go into edit quick and fast. As a documentary director I'm way more worried about missing a moment then I am having a little noise in the scene.

Someone mentioned that 4K will be everywhere in 2015, and I'm not sure that will be true. 2K looks great and the projectors are cheaper and most theaters have already invested in 2K. India is like all 2K, do you really think they are buying new projectors when they have working ones now. I'm not positive that every theater is going to shell out the extra cash to get a 4K projector, that remains to be seen. It would be nice but movie theaters are not doing that great in general. That business has suffered for generations.

Just to reiterate, the shootout is not a contest, it's about you, your skill, your mastery of any camera you have, your ability to light for your camera & color time for it. Trust me the best part of "Revenge of the Great Camera Shootout 2012" is going to be what you can learn from these incredible camera masters and guest DP's that I've interviewed, some are legends in the industry. I feel honored to be able to have talked and interviewed them with my Varicam and the 720p clips I have are gold. And before anyone asks, Jens, my DP likes using the Varicam so he can do slow zooms while the interview is rolling. He is a master of it and has been using ENG lenses for 25 years and that is what makes him comfortable. Plus I'm not crazy about to shallow DOF when I'm interviewing and I don't like stopping down because you need more light. I want my actors as cool and less distracted as possible. Again, ass for every saddle.

Whats your point?

 

[Zeb B]

Whats your point?

Let me cut it in to bite size pieces for you son: In the end it's all about the craft of Lighting. You can make a shit camera look great or a great camera shit with/without your knowledge and mastery of lighting. Any dipstick can buy an Epic (me) - few can light a scene like the classic Masters of Hollywood.

 

[Evan Starkey]

Let me cut it in to bite size pieces for you son: In the end it's all about the craft of Lighting. You can make a shit camera look great or a great camera shit with/without your knowledge and mastery of lighting. Any dipstick can buy an Epic (me) - few can light a scene like the classic Masters of Hollywood.

LOL not any dipstick

 

[Michael Millichamp]

I think Josh and Steve nailed it.

There are people which are die hard RED fans who will blindly say that "RED is the best camera hands down no matter what!!!"

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge RED fan and could not be any happier with my Scarlet. So let me use this as an example.

Jeff Cronenweth, DoP of The Social Network and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, recently shot a short on the Canon C500 that I saw at NAB. When I walked into the theater to view it, I thought to myself, "Man this isn't going to be as good as something shot on RED". I was clearly just saying that because I am somewhat of a RED Fanboy.

When I got done viewing the short, I was blown away. It was GORGEOUS. Yes, the C500 short was gorgeous. Is it because the camera is better and superior? Probably not. Was it because Jeff knows how to light beautiful? Yes. Then I stayed and watched other things that I really didn't care for.

Whenever people get over the stage of "If I buy this camera I am going to become the best DP ever because ill have to do no work at all" mentality and decide to go out and learn to light, and compose beautiful compositions, then that is when people will realize a camera is a tool, not a life saver.

It doesn't matter if you give a skilled carpenter a titanium hammer or a rock. He is going to do his absolute best to get that nail in.

 

[shashbugu]

Let me cut it in to bite size pieces for you son: In the end it's all about the craft of Lighting. You can make a shit camera look great or a great camera shit with/without your knowledge and mastery of lighting. Any dipstick can buy an Epic (me) - few can light a scene like the classic Masters of Hollywood.

What has a digital camera shootout got to do with the classic masters of Hollywood? I have absolutely no problem with learning lighting techniques or to be thought how a particular scene can be lit. I love to learn with every chance I get. However, lighting for film is a purely aesthetic artistic endeavor, a camera sensor's resolution is purely scientific. The classic masters of Hollywood used the best cameras available in the hopes that their work would be appreciated on the biggest screens. Did somebody say EPIC>......

 

[shashbugu]

I think Josh and Steve nailed it.

There are people which are die hard RED fans who will blindly say that "RED is the best camera hands down no matter what!!!"

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge RED fan and could not be any happier with my Scarlet. So let me use this as an example.

Jeff Cronenweth, DoP of The Social Network and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, recently shot a short on the Canon C500 that I saw at NAB. When I walked into the theater to view it, I thought to myself, "Man this isn't going to be as good as something shot on RED". I was clearly just saying that because I am somewhat of a RED Fanboy.

When I got done viewing the short, I was blown away. It was GORGEOUS. Yes, the C500 short was gorgeous. Is it because the camera is better and superior? Probably not. Was it because Jeff knows how to light beautiful? Yes. Then I stayed and watched other things that I really didn't care for.

Whenever people get over the stage of "If I buy this camera I am going to become the best DP ever because ill have to do no work at all" mentality and decide to go out and learn to light, and compose beautiful compositions, then that is when people will realize a camera is a tool, not a life saver.

It doesn't matter if you give a skilled carpenter a titanium hammer or a rock. He is going to do his absolute best to get that nail in.

I dont think people buy the The Epic camera to be the best DP's ever. They buy it to Have the best camera on the planet.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Let me cut it in to bite size pieces for you son: In the end it's all about the craft of Lighting. You can make a shit camera look great or a great camera shit with/without your knowledge and mastery of lighting. Any dipstick can buy an Epic (me) - few can light a scene like the classic Masters of Hollywood.

Agreed 100%...

HOWEVER...

If the same CLASSIC HOLLYWOOD MASTER was to have the better camera, trust me... The results would be better, much better...

I think Josh and Steve nailed it.

There are people which are die hard RED fans who will blindly say that "RED is the best camera hands down no matter what!!!"

Well, Michael as I respect your opinion, I sure hope you are not referring to me with such statement, as I can fortunately afford any camera currently available for sale, and few that you don't know about it as well...

Yet, I choose RED EPIC, because simply it is as of today the absolute best camera ever made.... PERIOD!!

 

[Tim van Dammen]

My problem with the Zacuto tests are:

The camera companies have no control over the processing.

The final results are 2K.

That's about it.

Jim

Does this mean that you have a problem with every professional production going to DCP?

Do we need a Red team to manage the post on our films?

Right now my film is going to output to 2K DCP and the footage is being handled by Park Road Post without any Red supervision - I hope you don't disapprove.

Sounds like this Zacuto shoot-out has irritated you beyond my comprehension.

You've got nothing to hide or to be afraid of, they're not going to ruin the Red footage on purpose.

I find this thread and the counter challenge very strange - seems like some sort of panic or tantrum.

I'll ask the guys at Park Road Post when they think they'll be delivering 4K so far I've only ever needed it to supply to the VFX team.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

You take a Corvette and a Formula One, and you limit the top speed to 150 mph and 450 hp...

The F1 car would still win - it's lighter and has a more responsive engine, even if its power output is the same. Also, its engine is closer to the driving wheels, resulting in less torque loss... etc... etc... ;-)

But so often I see DP being bantered about as merely the guy wanking with the camera

I won't say that your recollections are wrong, but I have never had the notion that a DP is just a camera guy, and I've never heard anyone express that incorrect assumption. Perhaps I've been blessed with curiosity, and I've always known that the DP isn't always the camera operator. To me, DP has always meant one thing: lighting. Okay, and a few other things, too. ;-)

As I wrote a few pages back, I got a lot out of last year's Zacuto test. I look forward to seeing the next one. But now we're getting a mixed message from Zacuto, it seems, and many others here have noticed, too: the camera shootout isn't really about cameras now. It's about the craft of cinematography. Which is fine. But why the backtracking?