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Cards on table: Pros/Cons of Scarlet

T

TomDannenberg

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Hi!

Since there are a lot of discussions about Scarlet's feature and comparisons to other competitors, I thought of having a short overview.

I, a camera operator, want to buy new camera equipment due to several reasons. The Scarlet seems to be fine (except of its release date), but... what do we really get? Is there a real PRO over other products?
Who should be addressed with this cam?




---------------------------------------------------
Scarlet 2/3"
PROs
- RED raw codec
- no aliasing
- no moire
- no rolling shutter
- no skipping lines (is it so?)
- it is PRO equipment

CONs
- tiny sensor
- DOF only possible with lenses < f/1.2 = unerfortable
- no release date
---------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------
5D mkII
PROs
- cheap
- bigger sensor
- swallow DOF
- already available
- can be used as usual cam if constraints are being noted


CONs
- h264 codec
- skipping lines
- moire effect
- aliasing
---------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------------------------
AF100
PROs
- much bigger sensor
- swallow DOF
- will be available in Dec
- also has PL mount


CONs
- ....
---------------------------------------------------


Please don't get me wrong with this post. I really would like to see the Scarelt in the shop, but currently I see no real reason to jump on the Scarelt train, since there are already other products out there serving as required.


Tom
 
AF100 cons...

24Mbps AVCHD internal recording.
8 bit HD-SDI out rather than 10 bit.
Not sure about image quality yet.

You can add 10.5 stops DR (according to Barry Green, I think), 1080/60p and HD EVF/LCD as pros though.
 
On another note, a pro for Scarlet is to support a company that aims to deliver some pretty crazy specs to it's customerbase.
I'm sure the AF 100 will be perfect for a lot of people but I wonder how avchd and colorgrading is going to go over. 8 bit SDI? Why not 10,14, or 16? Price? If so, how is it possible Scarlet can have such lofty feature sets for about the same price. That goes for Scarlet fixed with/lens.
 
All have their place for sure...I have 2 epics on order.....going to take a scarlet for sure; likely fixed.

Today I ordered Cannon 60d with housing---a PERFET BTS camera for my work. No need to shoot my RED or soon to be epic....and if it hits the ground and breaks to a hundred pieces---well, it wasn't my scarlet, red one or epic.

but seriously. consider your market--not what you would like to do, but where is your footage to end up? Then you can choose your camera. I know in my small circle.....a lot of reality doc work is going out with the 5d and 7d. no need for a red.
 
"Tiny sensor" is not a disadvantage. It is the final image quality that matters. If a 1/3" sensor produces a better image than a FF35 sensor, which one would you choose? As for "Shallow DOF", if that really matters to you, it really isn't much deeper than an AF100, practically. The popular 14-140 lens, which I am sure will be a popular starting point, is f/4-5.8. The popular starting point for Scarlet is, well, the 8x Fixed. Let's keep both wide open. To get a workable DOF we need to zoom in a bit on the 14-140 in which case it is more like a f/4.5 or so. Whereas at that field of view, the Scarlet 2/3" holds at f/2.4. I am not sure if my maths is correct, but I am getting a much shallower DOF for Scarlet 2/3". Let's consider a miniPrime. We are talking about a pretty shallow DOF at f/1.5. Approximately the same as AF100 at under f/2.4 and S35 at a bit over f/3. If you want to go even shallower than (very rare and specific situations), there are cheap f/0.95 C-mount lenses available, though you are likely to compromise on resolution.

So, for all practical purposes, DOF is NOT a disadvantage for Scarlet, and neither is "tiny sensor". In fact, it should be an advantage - you have more control over depth of field. And "tiny sensor" could be an advantage too - it means cheaper, lighter lenses with greater zoom ranges and larger apertures (well, f/stops). If you are really looking for ultra-shallow dream-like unmanageable depth-of-field, without the use of adapters, I suppose 5D is your only option then.
 
TomDannenberg said:
---------------------------------------------------
Scarlet 2/3"
PROs
- RED raw codec
- no aliasing
- no moire
- no rolling shutter
- no skipping lines (is it so?)
- it is PRO equipment

CONs
- tiny sensor
- DOF only possible with lenses < f/1.2 = unerfortable
- no release date
---------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

Pros:
HDRx
Very flexible data rates / compression ratios
No line skipping
150fps (higher at 2k)
Modular
Ethernet
Timecode
REDmote
CF, SSD, and upgradeable in the future
and lots more...

Cons:
Not true about the DOF. Graeme and I shot some tests for DOF and were able to get some awesome bokeh.
 
Kalani Prince said:
If so, how is it possible Scarlet can have such lofty feature sets for about the same price. That goes for Scarlet fixed with/lens.
Click to expand...

Well, no one knows the final price of any Scarlet... so it is not really fair to start comparing pricing.

Also, the AF-100 offers some fairly lofty features compared to a fixed Scarlet too... HD EVF, pro I/Os, 4x sensor size.. to name but a few. Most importantly though, it has a launch date (27th Dec).

God, I wish Scarlet was here though so I wouldn't be tempted in by these other cameras. As I've said before, I have a feature in June 2011, I have a bad feeling that Scarlet wont quite make it into my hands.
 
Subhadip Sen said:
"Tiny sensor" is not a disadvantage. It is the final image quality that matters. As for "Shallow DOF", if that really matters to you, it really isn't much deeper than an AF100, practically. The popular 14-140 lens, which I am sure will be a popular starting point, is f/4-5.8. The popular starting point for Scarlet is, well, the 8x Fixed. Let's keep both wide open. To get a workable DOF we need to zoom in a bit on the 14-140 in which case it is more like a f/4.5 or so. Whereas at that field of view, the Scarlet 2/3" holds at f/2.4. I am not sure if my maths is correct, but I am getting a noticeably shallow DOF for Scarlet 2/3". Let's consider a miniPrime. We are talking about a pretty shallow DOF at f/1.5. Approximately the same as S35 at f/2.8.

So, for all practical purposes, DOF is NOT a disadvantage for Scarlet, and neither is "tiny sensor". In fact, it should be an advantage - you have more control over depth of field. And "tiny sensor" could be an advantage too - it means cheaper, lighter lenses with greater zoom ranges and larger apertures (well, f/stops). If you are really looking for ultra-shallow dream-like unmanageable depth-of-field, I suppose 5D is your only option then.
Click to expand...

The sensor size in the AF100 is very close to that in the Red One at 16x9HD; the lens field of view factor is only 1.09 and the ability to use virtually any lens, including f0.95s make the difference in DOF profound.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
:thumbup:
Deanan said:
Graeme and I shot some tests for DOF and were able to get some awesome bokeh.
Click to expand...

Deanan, I know that it is way to early to request any samples from the Scarlet 2/3. But I hope that at some time in the near fututre, you will be able to post some frame grabs that show the DOF capabilities and bokeh of the Scarlet 2/3. In todays market, DOF flexibility is going to be a big factor for people with this camera, and if it is do-able without too much work and it looks great, then it won't be a factor at all. In the meantime, a verbal description of the bokeh and DOF characteristics could be interesting :thumbup: Thanks!
 
I might buy an AF100 to tide me over until Scarlet hits the streets, but one thing that is really putting me off is it is one ugly piece of product design. I'm not sure my clients would take me seriously if I turned up with a camera that looked like it had been made by Trabant.
 
Don't forget Swedish Ikonoskop A-Cam DII togehter with Cinedeck HD monitor/recorder (Adobe CinemaDNG codec)

and virtually can swap any manual aperture lens available today thanks to IMS base Lensmount:

PL, Panavision PV, Leica M, Leica R, Canon EOS, Nikon F, Canon FD, ... and C-mount.

image_db.php

Ikonoskop A-Cam DII: The price for the A-cam dII body is €6.950.

LINK>>>
 
At first I really liked the A-cam project. But I must admit that a few things made me cold with it:
-dedicated storage (80 or 160Go allowing you to record 17 and 34min of footage). Wich means that a guy like me could need up to 10 HDD like this to be safe. An at what price each???
-240M/sec is huge ! Do you have a double eight-core with plenty of RAM and AND double 1500€ Graphic card for realtime editing? no? Argh ! (ok It's a bit too much but not so far from truth).
-Camera can be pre ordered for two years, can you imagine the first guy who gave like 1000$ two years ago and sees nothing coming...?
These issues are going to be solved but till then I think it's not a great idea.
 
TomDannenberg said:
- tiny sensor
Click to expand...

;)

You might wanna rethink that word there, as it is very misleading. 2/3" is not a tiny sensor. 1/3" is a tiny sensor. There is a big difference


TomDannenberg said:
- DOF only possible with lenses < f/1.2 = unerfortable
Click to expand...

Can tell you haven't shot much with a 2/3" camera before. You would be surprised.
 
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