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canon no APC or full frame sensor video camera in 2010

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Irmeli R

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according to chris hurd

http://www.dvinfo.net/features/canon-reveals-their-next-pro-video-cam.html#press

cinc1b2009hdc2.jpg
 
Chris' analysis of why Canon will lag behind others (like Red) in making larger sensor prosumer video cameras seems reasonable. Though unless this new 1/3" camera is sold cheaply enough, I don't see it taking off. It's too little, too late, so it better not be too costly.
 
I'f it's true and it's still a 1/3" CCD then this release looks likeits basically a tapeless XHA1. It will be outdated before it even premieres.

If he's wrong, and the sensors are 1/2" or 2/3" then they may have something worth looking at (especially if those are CCDs).

They really should just marry the designs of the 7D and the XL-H1 to give us a legit CAMCORDER with that 35 sensor. It seems easy and logical to me, andit would allow Canon to remain at least COMPETITIVE with the likes of a Scarlet or an EX1 (in the independent film world, at least).
 
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Most of his predictions seem based around the idea that Canon would be targeting the broadcast market that currently use 1/3" or 2/3" CCD sensors (zoom lens, deep DOF etc)

Surely the whole point of an APS-C camera would be that it enables Canon to shift towards the cinema market? (and other DOF hungry markets like music video, commercials etc)
 
Jim Retar said:
Most of his predictions seem based around the idea that Canon would be targeting the broadcast market that currently use 1/3" or 2/3" CCD sensors (zoom lens, deep DOF etc)

Surely the whole point of an APS-C camera would be that it enables Canon to shift towards the cinema market? (and other DOF hungry markets like music video, commercials etc)
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True but Canon is already selling (quite literally) tons of cameras into that market with the 5D, 7D, 1DMKIV, and fairly soon the full frame 1DsMKIV which presumably will incrementally improve the video again. Although I am sure they keep a close eye on RED, it is quite possible that Canon would lose more in cannibalized vDSLR sales than they would make up in a competitive hardcore Digital Cinema Camera - and they are doing so well with the vDSLRs right now that they don't need to risk finding out. (yet.)
 
I'd guess that an APS-C camera with pro I/O would be $8k+... so maybe that would fit in with their vDSLR plans, rather than squash them.

Form factor is also an issue. I quite like the DSLR setup as I am used to it... but maybe people moving from, for example, the HVX+35mm market will be more suited working with a video camera body.

I would also assume they would strip out any real imagery functionality (bar basic point and shoot... frame grab) separating the two lines even more.
 
Jim Retar said:
Most of his predictions seem based around the idea that Canon would be targeting the broadcast market that currently use 1/3" or 2/3" CCD sensors (zoom lens, deep DOF etc)

Surely the whole point of an APS-C camera would be that it enables Canon to shift towards the cinema market? (and other DOF hungry markets like music video, commercials etc)
Click to expand...

But the cinema market is smaller than the broadcast market...

The small sensor video camera market is not going anywhere, people like the form factor too much. And Chris Hurd explained well the issues with jumping to a large sensor in terms of the optics and focus-pulling issues.

Here's my take on this: these high-end prosumer 1/3" 3-sensor Canon cameras are neither fish nor fowl anymore -- Canon is making better and better small sensor cameras for consumers that want that sort of thing, and at the other end, they have their DSLR video cameras. Of course there is still a market for prosumer cameras that are small but have pro features, but if Canon really wants to retake that market, they have to outdo the Sony EX1/EX3. Which is really what the 2/3" Scarlet is going to do, but Canon doesn't seem to be offering anything that competes with the EX1/EX3 or 2/3" Scarlet, that's the real problem. They don't necessarily have to jump to 35mm sensors and all of those attendant issues, but considering they have experience making optics for 2/3" and Super-16 cameras, then why not jump to that size and really take-on the 2/3" Scarlet?

Putting out a tapeless version of the XHA1 is just a bit, well, weak -- unless the darn thing is being sold at a killer price. And does it still do the silly 24F format instead of a true 24P?

But I do think there is a prosumer market for cameras with sensors smaller than 35mm so that they can use tiny electronic zooms, be held by the palm, etc. Jumping from 1/3" to 2/3" would be a significant improvement in quality without having to reinvent the wheel in terms of optics.
 
Jim Retar said:
I'd guess that an APS-C camera with pro I/O would be $8k+... so maybe that would fit in with their vDSLR plans, rather than squash them.

Form factor is also an issue. I quite like the DSLR setup as I am used to it... but maybe people moving from, for example, the HVX+35mm market will be more suited working with a video camera body.

I would also assume they would strip out any real imagery functionality (bar basic point and shoot... frame grab) separating the two lines even more.
Click to expand...

My point was that sometimes those kind of choices - ie. really going off in a truly new direction - create more confusion and do more harm than good, and in realworld marketing situations aren't worth the risk.

Right now, the vDSLRs are in a situation where even if they had no video capability Canon/Nikon would be bringing them out with the same mix of still camera features, resolutions and prices. Video is just a bonus to the intended/established market - so no real confusion.

Fairly expensive, shallow DOF "cinema" cameras have only shown themselves to be an approximate 5000 unit per year market whereas APS-C and FF35 DSLRs and now vDSLRs have proven sales in tens and even hundreds of thousands per year.

And while it is probably somewhat accurate that the 1/3" 3 chip camcorder that simply upgrades from tape to flash media probably won't be a world beater, there is still a substantial market for deep dof, large zoom range, autofocus capable, relatively compact $2K-$6 camcorders. And those people very well may simply upgrade to a flash media camcorder even if not much else changes. But that in itself allows substantially greater recording quality since higher data rates are possible.

So again, what is the big incentive NOW to directly compete with or undercut RED in the S35 DOF market - when they already sell 20 or 30 times the volume and as much or more in dollar value of a hybrid product that doesn't upset their marketing applecart?

*************

Just saw david's post so let me add a bit: First, the jump from tape to flash isn't trivial - it allows much better RECORDING with higher data rates and maybe helps with the some of those format issues that come along with having to write to a helical scan tape. I see a camera like this sort of straddling the JVC GY-HM100 super compact and the larger EX1/3 in both size and price. And that probably makes some sense - they have a long development timeline with 1/3" chip cameras with prosumer lenses - so why put a lot of effort now into 1/2" or 2/3" cameras when they too see the writing on the wall as being either tiny chips or S35/FF35. (And they can still claim they aren't stepping on the toes of their broadcast 2/3" lens customers.)
 
Here's the thing, wether people WANT to admit or not, the 5d mk ii WAS a game-changer in the sense that all of the sudden nearly cinematic acceptable quality was being made available to a much larger market due to its price. I'm with David in that, if people already debate between wether they should shoot with the Scarlet or the 7D/5Dmkii, then if Canon puts out a higher end, they surely will give some solid competition. the sensors on those things are just gorgeous
 
If I were in charge of Canon I'd do the following things at NAB:

1. Update the XHA1 to be tapeless, newer generation of sensors, etc (that's what this seems to be).

2. Make damn sure I showed off a prototype large sensor camera in order to tempt people to hold off on orders for competing high-end systems until Canon releases a video-optimized product (which'll probably only come in 2011).

3. Get busy ramping cheap higher-resolution EVFs & LCDs across the product line already ;) It's 2010! No more shooting HD using a low-res screen! Even a common cellphone like the Droid is 854x480. WTF.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
If I were in charge of Canon I'd do the following things at NAB:

1. Update the XHA1 to be tapeless, newer generation of sensors, etc (that's what this seems to be).

2. Make damn sure I showed off a prototype large sensor camera in order to tempt people to hold off on orders for competing high-end systems until Canon releases a video-optimized product (which'll probably only come in 2011).

3. Get busy ramping cheap higher-resolution EVFs & LCDs across the product line already ;) It's 2010! No more shooting HD using a low-res screen! Even a common cellphone like the Droid is 854x480. WTF.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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Playing the Canon marketing manager, the only thing I would disagree on is your timing on number 2 - they don't really need to show their hand at all until production Epics are shipping in volume since early units are going to the early adopter/hardcores like me anyway. Once RED fully tips their hand, Canon can then respond with whatever price/feature mix is appropriate. In the meantime they keep selling boatloads of 5DMIIs, 7Ds, 1dMKIVs, 1dsMKIVs, T1is, etc. Which is why they are a formidable competitor.

Question on LCDs - Red 5.6" is 1024x600 or 614,000 pixels. My 7d spec says 920,000 dots (VGA) so is a pixel all 3 colors? i.e. would the RED LCD be 1,833,000 dots for comparison purposes?
 
I might be a bit off the mark here...

but with the huge difference in sensor size and ISO technology that Canon could put into a APS-C video camera..... would it not be possible to shoot at a smaller F-stop (therefore achieving the deeper DOF of 2/3")?

Of course, that wouldn't fix the zoom lens issue. So probably a moot point.
 
Jim Retar said:
I might be a bit off the mark here... as i'm no pro....

but with the huge difference in sensor size and ISO technology that Canon could put into a APS-C video camera..... would it not be possible to shoot at a smaller F-stop (therefore achieving the deeper DOF of 2/3")?

Of course, that wouldn't fix the zoom lens issue. So probably a moot point.
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You're right you can get the same deep DOF with the higher sensitivity of the big chip, but you can't get a 20x autofocus Zoom for anywhere near the size or price.
 
I happen to think that Canon can afford to wait it out a little, see where Red hits and misses in new territory with the Scarlet and then make their move based on what they've learned by someone else sicking their neck out and pioneering. They've got great sales with the 5D/7D as well as their other cameras so even though waiting it out 6-12 months makes us go nuts, it makes perfect sense for them.

At least that's my take on things.
 
I'm honestly most excited/interested to see what Panasonic does next.

an HPX with a 2/3" or 4/3" sensor priced under $10k would give Scarlet and the EX1 a SERIOUS run for their money.

Their new monster of a TV indicates that theyre ready to embrace 4k. NAB will be very interesting indeed.
 
Rick Presas said:
I'm honestly most excited/interested to see what Panasonic does next.

an HPX with a 2/3" or 4/3" sensor priced under $10k would give Scarlet and the EX1 a SERIOUS run for their money.

Their new monster of a TV indicates that theyre ready to embrace 4k. NAB will be very interesting indeed.
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Sure, but I suspect that if they do embrace 4K, it will first be in their more expensive professional line of cameras, not the under $10k line.

All those companies that make pro 2/3" video gear have to seriously wonder what to sell in their under-$10k line that won't undercut their expensive 2/3" cameras. Sony basically decided to go with a 1/2" sensor in the EX1/EX3 as some sort of bridge. So if Panasonic jumps to a 4/3 sensor in an under $10k camera, what does that do for the sales of their 2/3" Varicam products? Same goes the other direction, if they start making a 35mm sensor camera that is 3K, 4K, etc.? What do they sell that for?
 
Lower-end goes 2/3 or 3/4

High end goes FF35 and 2/3 for ENG
 
David Mullen ASC said:
... And does it still do the silly 24F format instead of a true 24P?

...
Click to expand...
24F is a variant/deviant form of HDV. Since the camera will not record solid state using the HDV codec, I don't think it's possible you'll see 24F.

But this camera is a major disappointment, if it's as has been speculated.
 
It gets realy interesting when these cameras hit the market
http://arridigital.com/tease 50k for an Arri with FF (even if it only has 3.5k), that's quiet impressiv an you have the option for an optical viewfinder. That's great. I think 4k is pretty good, 5k even better. But till HDTV is established worldwide, it will take some time. And i don't think that it will be replaced very soon by a higher definition. So all these cameras with a resolution higher than HDTV but not 4K will be perfect for TV-series or Television features.
 
Canon video camcorder (APS-C or full frame) for Spring ?

Canon video camcorder (APS-C or full frame) for Spring ?

I heard about a new Canon video camcorder (APS-C or full frame) for next Spring...



From someone working closely with Canon-France..


Maybe something at NAB....:aureola:



Canon can't wait to capitalise the "Savoir-faire", except to open widely the door to RED, and so many others....
 
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