Canon/Nikon lenses not usable on Scarlet Cinema?

[Aaron Cheater]

I remember reading somewhere on this thread not too long ago someone (not from Red) saying that the Canon/Nikon adapters that Red are making would not fit on the Scarlet Cinema, and therefore Canon/Nikon DSLR lenses would not be able to be used. They said something about the only lenses that would be able to be used on the Scarlet Cinema would be the Red mini primes that are specifically being made for it, and that only the Epic-S's, X's and M's would be able to fit DSLR lenses.

Now I know its foolish of me to listen to anyone who aren't from Red when it comes to possible features of their future camera's, but I was wondering whether anyone from Red would be able to put my mind at ease about this once and for all. I already own a 7D and plan on buying a multitude of lenses for it, which I was also hoping to use on the Scarlet Cinema (interchangeable) once it is released. I would love to get the Epic-S, but at this stage it isn't in my budget although I will be upgrading to it from the Scarlet as soon as my finances allow.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

I don't think anyone has said that the mini primes are the only lenses you can use. We know that at least there will be C and B4 mounts, probably also PL, so you can use 16mm cine and 2/3" broadcast lenses.

Remember that the Scarlet interchangeable is 2/3", so using Canon or Nikon lenses you would have a 2.5x crop factor and they may not be sharp since you are using such a small part of the image circle. That said, I think some SLR lenses, like the Tokina 11-16 or a 17-50, would actually make very good lenses for the Scarlet if they are sharp enough. But I can't imagine Canon and Nikon mounts are on their priority list.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Well ... I bet there will be Canon and Nikon mounts as well for Scarlet.

Just remember almost every Canon and Nikon lens will be a telephoto lens on Scarlet Cinema. The Canon 24-70 would be roughly equivalent in FoV to a 60-175 lens. The 70-200 is a 175 to 500 zoom.

And that's actually why SLR lenses are interesting to Scarlet Cinema users. A 600mm lens would practically be a telescope!

Also Scarlet is so small you can keep a couple of them at hand ready to go ... it could be exciting for nature and documentary camera work.

 

[Franck De Togni]

Well The Canon 24-70 would be roughly equivalent in FoV to a 60-175 lens. The 70-200 is a 175 to 500 zoom.

Actually I don't think that's quite right. I remember a form factor of x3.6 on ff lenses. 24-70 would become around 86-250.

Am I wrong?

Anyway that'd be longer telephoto for nature ! :w00t:

 

[John Burnley]

It would be hard to imagine Red not making Nikon and Canon (and other?) adapters for the camera - but if they did not other enterprising parties would fill the void in short order.

 

[G Lap]

A crop factor of closer to 3.75 compared to FF35 stills (2.9 compared to S35). Approximate full-sensor figures are

2/3rds - 10.1 x 5.35mm (11.5mm diagonal)
S35 - 30 x 15mm (33.5mm diagonal)
FF35 - 36 x 24mm (43mm diagonal)

(The diagonals and crop factors will vary with the active/cropped sensor area and aspect ratio in use, i.e. 5k, 4k, 3k etc, 2:1, 2.4:1, 16:9 etc, but this gives you an idea).

 

[David Rasberry]

I am sure at some point there will be either Red provided or aftermarket solutions for using Canon or Nikon still lenses on Scarlet Cinema. The main question that comes to mind is why would you want to do this? These lenses are not optimum for best quality on the smaller format. Cheap ones won't have the resolution necessary to get the best out of a Scarlet and the top of the line models that potentially can won't be cheaper than decent quality used 16mm lenses or the mini-primes.
My preference is for constant speed, par focal fast broad range compact zooms, something which doesn't exist in the 35mm still world.

 

[Zac C]

It was probably my comment you saw on the other thread, and I mearly meant it from my opinion it'd be impractical for red to make one, since to go wide, you'd need a crazy wide lens on FF nikon or canon.

 

[G Lap]

I agree that stills FF35 lenses won't be the best choice for Scarlet Cinema. I would think that RED's own mini-primes or 16mm (etc) lenses would be a better match for the sensor size and anyone wanting an electronic zoom capability would surely be better off with Scarlet Fixed.

Each to his own though and I'm sure others, if not RED themselves, will produce Canon/Nikon mounts or adapters if the demand is there.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Actually I don't think that's quite right. I remember a form factor of x3.6 on ff lenses. 24-70 would become around 86-250.

Am I wrong?

Anyway that'd be longer telephoto for nature ! :w00t:

Um ... I was comparing it to S35 16:9 sensors or APS-C. I didn't make that clear - sorry.

Even so, I think my arithmetic was wrong. G Lap wrote 2.9 crop factor ... now I can't be bothered to look it up- so I'm using his numbers. George seems to have been awake when writing.

As to David Raspberry's assertions about resolution, I think that we'll get 3K out of the SLR glass. Most modern APS-C glass - even the crappy stuff- resolves 18Mpixels pretty handily.

In any case ... 3K, 3072x1728, is about 5.3Mpixels. Reversing the crop factor (and I'm just estimating with a crop factor of 3 for the APS-C frame) you are in the 16Mpixel ball park.

Also, if you are using older Nikon glass you know it resolves on R1 pretty well. You can get the 3.2K R1 can actually deliver after finishing out of those older SLR lenses.

I'm rambling ... my point is that SLR glass is plenty sharp for motion applications - its all the other characteristics that suck.

I think that if Red can deliver electronic Nikon/Canon mounts for Scarlet Cinema, they'll be useful.

My inbuilt assumptions about the usefulness of SLR lenses/mounts depends on Scarlet having the same sort of mounting mechanism as Epic, allowing for very quick and easy mount swaps in the field. The Tokina 11-16 is the widest SLR lens I want to use on Scarlet, and that's not a useful zoom range for most 2/3" systems.

Fujinon's 2/3" ENG A13x4.5BE wide angle zoom lens is 4.5-59mm. Their A18x7.6BE standard zoom is 7.6-137mm. Their A42x13.5BE telephoto zoom is 13.5-570mm.

I don't have pricing ... but they are NOT cheap lenses.

16mm lenses are a great value ... but they are a bit long and have short zoom ranges. Here is AbelCine's 16mm zoom rental list.

So, I'm hoping to use Red Mini-Primes on the wide -standard range, 16mm in the standard range, and SLR for the telephoto range. In a pinch, I could use SLR in the standard range as well, thinking of the Tokina 11-16, Tamron's 17-50 or the Canon 16-35.

Illumina offers a 16mm set, with a uniform t/1.3. 6 lenses are $15,900, they go from 8mm to 50mm.

If PL mount is offered, you could reasonably use S35 PL lenses, and just fill in the range with the S16 and 2/3" primes.

A lot depends on your working style and preferences. Oh and the budget ... I mean if you can afford them the Fujinon broadcast lenses I mentioned above are fantastic choices, as are their counterparts from Canon.

 

[Roberto B]

amazing! hehe :drool5:

:Angel_anim:

:emote_couch::sifone:

:biggrinjester:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There is a lot of fail in this thread. a lot. I'm walking away now....

 

[Roberto B]

what a thread!
btw what about the phone# of that bartender girl? :001_tt1:
ehehehe

here's my 2wd car.. :auto:
:emote_hippie:

 

[Franck De Togni]

No problem Alexander ! It was just me and my maths ! :arf:

The best choice, I think, should be Red mini primes and s16 lenses, that are specially made for this.

But, as there will be a lot of possibilities, any kinda lens could be a good option, even if they are not cine lenses.
One can use canon, nikon (my dx set is ready ) sigma and tokina, zeiss, s16, S35, broadcast lenses and cine lenses ! That will be sooo cool ! :w00t:

 

[Edward Saltau]

I'm interested in whether 35mm SLR lenses will resolve 3k on the scarlet. The crop factor is substantial and while it uses the best part of the lens, it's still a very small section of the glass.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm interested in whether 35mm SLR lenses will resolve 3k on the scarlet. The crop factor is substantial and while it uses the best part of the lens, it's still a very small section of the glass.

I'm quite confident that 35mm SLR lenses will resolve 3K on Scarlet ... but Nyquist tells us that while Scarlet may record a 3K RAW file, you'll get significantly less after debayering and such. So, something like 2.5K is what I'd expect - I bet Graeme has the exact figures.

 

[Edward Saltau]

I'm quite confident that 35mm SLR lenses will resolve 3K on Scarlet ... but Nyquist tells us that while Scarlet may record a 3K RAW file, you'll get significantly less after debayering and such. So, something like 2.5K is what I'd expect - I bet Graeme has the exact figures.

I just read your previous post. Convincing in regards to SLR lenses resolving 3k.
Perhaps lens adapters would be the best system for scarlet cinema. Like a nikon to mini red mount adapter. I'm not sure what mount S16mm glass is but surely an adapter is possible that too?

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

It is my suggestion, that when ever talking about focal lengths, that it should always be the 35mm full frame equivalent that is mentioned if a reference point is needed.

There are so many different formats, that it really doesn't make sense to refer to another cropped format for reference.

Either state what it actually is, e.g. 6mm, or what it correlates to in full frame terms.

 

[David Rasberry]

I'm interested in whether 35mm SLR lenses will resolve 3k on the scarlet. The crop factor is substantial and while it uses the best part of the lens, it's still a very small section of the glass.

I would say if you are using top of the line lenses, like Canon L series, you will probably get OK results. But from the tests on most 35mm lenses they mostly fall around 30lpmm for 50% MTF. By comparison, a 5mp rated 2/3" format lens falls around 150 lpmm for 50% MTF. The Fuji Digiprimes deliver better than 80% MTF at 56 lpmm, extremely sharp high contrast lenses. Even my old Angenieux 12-120 will deliver 50% MTF at around 100 lpmm, and that is considered a "soft" 16mm lens.

For example, DPreview showed the Nikon 50mm f1.4 as resolving 1500 lines over the full 16mm height of an APS-C sensor. To produce the same apparent resolution with Scarlet it would have to resolve more like 1100 lines in 5.35mm, or more than twice what it tested.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Using FF35 as a reference doesn't make a lot of sense for me -- you're suggesting that the majority of people here primarily shoot FF35 and thus have that range of focal lengths in their head. I shoot 35mm cine / Super-35 / APS-C / digital 35mm (Genesis, Alexa, F35, Red One, Epic, etc.) and have those focal lengths in my head... it takes some work to mentally convert them to FF35 equivalents. Very little filmmaking is done with FF35 formats (Canon 5D and VistaVision mainly) compared to 35mm cine, so why should FF35 be the basis for discussion on typical focal lengths used for filmmaking? FF35 is primarily a still photographer reference.

The main problem is that people in their posts don't label the format they are referring to, that's all, when they say that "this is equal to that..." in terms of equivalent focal lengths, hence the confusion. That and some people don't know that FF35 refers to 36mm x 24mm, and all of this is further confused by the fact that the M-X sensor is larger than Super-35 (30mm wide, not 24mm wide) and yet Red calls it a S35 sensor.