Canon finally realizing RED is a threat?

[Emanuel A.]

Closest RED competitors are Silicon Imaging and ARRI, unless you are only considering price, not functionality and image quality. Add Sony and Panasonic in the 2/3" market.

I see your point but this is not what the Canon staff off record says nor what I and many other professionals have seen and faced in a daily basis.

The others are not serious competition, I mean, they cannot bite the RED's market basis

Today's example:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=562285#post562285

Besides, RED needs mass production, we as well.
That's where the price 'thing' enters.

Notice their advertisement and provocative tag, no more words are necessary to understand their mood and focus (not the Epic camera for sure but the company's brand of RED ONE and Scarlet -- current and future RED's best sellers):

May 2009

March 2010

Even this story of introducing upcoming features via new FREE firmware is Jim's trademark, not the typical Fujio Mitarai's or Yoroku Adachi's (Canon Inc. and Canon USA CEOs) product line.

 

[David Rasberry]

I see about $3k worth of extra hardware hanging off that Canon SNL rig and it still has very uncomfortable and awkward ergonomics for video.

 

[Emanuel A.]

What's next? The modular design?

 

[Emanuel A.]

Canon's current XH series 1/3" cams with interchangeable lenses push $10k. The rumor mentioned 2k resolution target for half the price of a Red 1 shooting package. That would be half of around $25-30k realistically if it is truly a video camera with all the implied functional and ergonomic requirements that carries, not a DSLR.

I am planning on a Scarlet 2/3" cinema package that fully configured for practical field production will run between $10k-15k and that is with used lenses. I think a lot of folks are very unrealistic in their estimates of what it takes for a camera to cover a typical day of production, not including support and lighting. Even a 7D needs $3-4k worth of lenses and accessories to be marginally practical as a motion camera.

Fair enough. However, between the real(istic) price you well talk about, there's the commercial price also known as 'target price' [ LINK ] -- the only numbers a big company like Canon uses in their maths.

 

[Raphael Varandas]

What about the new 1d mark IV ...what they want with this?
5k dollars


cheers

 

[Emanuel A.]

What about the new 1d mark IV ...what they want with this?
5k dollars


cheers

Just targeted for their sports still photography market, that's all. Even though, the convergence age is still there, therefore, the video.

They are ones of the first to recognise the times we're living in. I know what I'm talking about just 'cause I know a few people inside the company. They are very aware of a new age in the media. A few of them have participated in the same conferences (@ film festivals, filmschools, universities, TV stations, trade organisations, professionals guilds, etc) as myself. That's where they're also trying to get their ideas from. I am sorry for my humble unvoluntary contribution. I am still waiting for my (fees) check though ;-)

Abraço da Europa,

Emanuel

 

[David Rasberry]

Fair enough. However, between the real(istic) price you well talk about, there's the commercial price also known as 'target price' [ LINK ] -- the only numbers a big company like Canon uses in their maths.

Designing down to a target price inevitably means compromises in quality, performance,and functionality. I agree that Canon is not likely to drift too far from their mass consumer/prosumer under $10k price range target markets. I expect they will remain as they always have very competitive in that price range. I own a good Canon prosumer DV camcorder and like it a lot for what it is. It is however a rather delicate device that has to be treated gently compared to a true professional level camera that costs several times its price. It wouldn't survive long as an ENG camera at a TV station for instance. This is just one example of cost compromise.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Designing down to a target price inevitably means compromises in quality, performance,and functionality. I agree that Canon is not likely to drift too far from their mass consumer/prosumer under $10k price range target markets. I expect they will remain as they always have very competitive in that price range. I own a good Canon prosumer DV camcorder and like it a lot for what it is. It is however a rather delicate device that has to be treated gently compared to a true professional level camera that costs several times its price. It wouldn't survive long as an ENG camera at a TV station for instance. This is just one example of cost compromise.

Yes, but remember they're offering now a $1,700 DSLR camera well accepted as weather sealed and robust device. I know the report of a photographer who dropped his unit in a pool with no damage consequences for surprise of everyone. Economies of scale is a long run concept just arrived to the motion picture.

 

[Jim Retar]

You guys realise this whole article is hanging off a "rated 1" (1 being very unreliable) rumour from canonrumors.com ?

No one knows what any of these manufacturers have up their sleeves or whether they even care what RED are up to. The 2/3" Scarlets will have zero effect on the photography market, the Epics are out of their customer range and... let's be honest... the scarlet s35/FF (the only cameras that Canon will really be concerned about) could be years in the waiting. Even if we are talking late 2010... I think the chances of them ironing out moire/aliasing and putting in a nice codec, by then, are quite high.

 

[David Rasberry]

For Red the stills market is very much a secondary consideration. Their lowest end cameras will enter at the very top end of the DSLR market cost wise in their most stripped down versions. There is little overlap with Canon, fundamentally they serve different markets.
Canon has provided excellent optics to the mid-high end motion market, but has never competed there or developed cameras for it. I don't think their marketing goals include doing so, and regardless of what they do with motion in their DSLR's, they will remain primarily still cameras in concept and design. At the current and near future limits of solid state fabrication technologies and capacities, full motion raw at full sensor resolution won't be part of the plan. No doubt they will make some improvements in the 1080p HD video codecs and processing, but beyond HD 1080p mpeg motion they will not go at consumer price levels.
Economies of scale or not, research, development and fabrication costs would prevent this. The market for such cameras is quite small by Canon standards, even for cameras like the 5dII and 7D. 85% of their camera market is under $1k retail. DSLR's of any kind only represent about 5% of their total sales volume. Prosumer level $3k and up video cameras much less than 1%. For the bulk of Canon's market, raw motion acquisition would be more of a liability than a desired feature. Most of their camera consumers don't even want to deal with shooting raw stills.
Expecting S35/APS-C or FF35 RED quality full sensor resolution raw motion performance in a sub $3k camera from any manufacturer any time in the next few years falls into the category of wishful thinking. Comparing any long GOP MPEG codec HD format camera with a RED or other raw motion camera system as a high quality acquisition format is silly.

 

[I Bloom]

Unfortunately sometimes the best image quality doesn't win. Convenience wins. And that is sadly what we are seeing all over the place right now.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Let's face it, the 7D market is primarily made up of still shooters, not video shooters.

David...

Don't you think this is going to change quickly?

Unfortunately sometimes the best image quality doesn't win. Convenience wins. And that is sadly what we are seeing all over the place right now.

That's why I think RED should really consider going back to the 'Hoochie Mama' (forgot about the filter, lol) market in its 3rd generation.

I guess the technology will be there to allow RED quality products at a very low price point.

Can I say... 3K for $3K again?

Spread the RAW! :biggrin5:

 

[Shane Kelly]

Is this the new canon?
http://cameradeptporn.tumblr.com/post/407733697/i-keep-trying-to-write-a-joke-about-this-photo

 

[Sterling Wescott]

Is this the new canon?
http://cameradeptporn.tumblr.com/post/407733697/i-keep-trying-to-write-a-joke-about-this-photo

Probably...

 

[Rick Burnett]

Why is it that EVERY owner I know who owns a 7D shoots video with it and bought it for that primary purpose? The 5D and 1D owners I know, they bought for stills, but not the 7D people I've come across, myself included. To be honest, I think my Nikon D90 shoots better stills and has a better interface than the 7D. Of course, now you have the 550D (t2i) that is picking up a lot of steam because it is half the price.

Which had me thinking. Of all the people I know who shoot video, which is probably 30 to 40, only two are planning on picking up the Scarlet (myself included). I think the fixed scarlet is still out of the price range for a lot of weekend warrior independent filmers. Don't take this the wrong way, I think the scarlet is well priced for what you are getting. Without question. But that doesn't make money magically appear. A lot of people have invested $6k+ in the Sony/Canon range and just can't spend any more.

That said, after they start seeing the footage, I bet they'll change their tune real soon.

I think you could probably say that right now, the market is evolving at a rapid pace. I've read interviews with Canon division heads where they were suprised about the 5D/7D and didn't expect the response they got and how they wanted to be used. They claim to have been taken by surprise at the popularity.

I will say this however. I am a no one in the film world. Yet, I can talk with the head of Red, or many of the Red engineering staff and not only ask questions but also raise concerns or desires. That is one area where Canon just fails for me. I send them a long email about software changes to my camera and all I got was an automated response. I'm not blaming them, they are huge, they are no different than any other large company. But it certainly doesn't make me want to stay in their park playing ball.

I think Red is making it's own market that didn't exist before.