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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cancel that thought...

Gavin Greenwalt said:
You must be reading very different comments than me. He said "I shoot mostly with Alexa because I like the image better. A lot of people choose Alexa because they like the image better not out of ignorance or misinformation."

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. Saying he's flinging feces and accusing us of being losers is your projection not his words. If anything this level of defensiveness over really innocuous divergence of opinion reinforces his position that it's like talking to a religious convert who can't see even mild criticism of their belief without also projection caustic personal attacks along with them (that don't exist).

To address his original point. The #1 reason I've heard directors ask to shoot Alexa in Pre-Pro meetings is due to "I think it's the most filmic look of all the digital cameras." I haven't heard Pro-Res mentioned once or RED unreliability or any of that.
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Gavin, those were but a few of the posts that Chris made, all fine and acceptable. It was some of the other jabs taken that I was considering. I was only addressing his analogy as erroneous and his reply was still as such, but no matter. He has his opinion and is welcome to it, but they are laced with digs and jabs to make his point, which are unnecessary. Statements like:

"They don't care how lightweight an EPIC is, or how much you didn't have to pay for upgrades, or how good the community is, or how often Jim posts in the middle of the night. The Alexa has an amazing look and that is all they care about. I feel the same. I wish my Alexa was as lightweight and small as my EPIC, but the image easily makes up for it (and not needing to deal with fan speed management or needing a Pro I/O module helps a lot as well)." He's cherry-picking.

And more:
"If you love your RED camera, then love on it all day and rejoice in the fantastic technology at a fairly cheap price, but I wouldn't go making assumptions on why other people choose the cams they choose. Just putting in my 2 cents as it bugs me every time I hear people give what I feel are false justifications why they think people all don't use REDs all the time. There is no "Alexa problem". RED is leading the way for getting a lot of stuff for less money (although BlackMagic just made a major dent in that ratio) and ARRI is leading the way in best image."

Then he felt it necessary to elevate himself above the fray:

"Producers would rather the latter as they aren't camera owners. Same with colorists. They like that the image looks almost perfect straight out of the gate rather than messing with secondaries to get all the colors in order and that saves a lot of time and money. There are many, many reasons beyond things that RED owners enjoy about their cams."

Personally I don't care if the Zacuto tests exist or not as I can do my own Red vs Alexa tests all day in my pajamas. But I certainly don't understand what all the animosity is about it."

He is welcome to his opinion, skewed as it might be, but why does he have such animus for the RED? I'm curious too, why anyone would go and buy an Epic M knowing it was a beta camera and then complain about it? That is odd behavior to me and thus, his comments ring hollow.

Finally, if my comments were taken as personal, I apologize. That thought hadn't crossed my mind and was not intended.
 
Chris Smith said:
That is a fantastic question. If one felt like wasting time and perusing I believe it was the "Red Armor" post a few months back, I posted my great displeasure to find out that if I sold my EPIC-M, the new owner could only get 90 days maximum warranty at any cost which makes it basically unsellable. To which Jarred said, "Easy solution, Chris. Buy an ARRI". I did just that. So, until my warranty expires on the EPIC, might as well consign it out and have it pay for itself. If this has changed and I can buy a 1 or 2 year warranty on my EPIC-M, I would love to know so I can get this thing moved.
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Chris Smith said:
As a guy that owned an EPIC-M for 5 months then sold it to get an Alexa I can tell you it was simply put, the image. period. That's what I get paid to turn-in. It's the most beautiful digital camera right now. End of story. If the EPIC looked remotely in the ballpark as good, I would have been more than happy to keep it. If RED can make a good looking sensor in the future I will use it as well. We're still talking about cameras because they make pretty pictures, right?
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http://www.arridigital.com/forum/in...i1s4jm48tt6sn9mr6&topic=733.msg11358#msg11358

Chris,

On the Alexa Forums someone by your name reported that they sold their EPIC-M after 5 months of using it to get an Alexa camera. I don't want to assume that this person was you. But just for clarity...did you sell your EPIC-M already in order to purchase an Alexa?
 
Andrae Palmer said:
http://www.arridigital.com/forum/in...i1s4jm48tt6sn9mr6&topic=733.msg11358#msg11358

Chris,

On the Alexa Forums someone by your name reported that they sold their EPIC-M after 5 months of using it to get an Alexa camera. I don't want to assume that this person was you. But just for clarity...did you sell your EPIC-M already in order to purchase an Alexa?
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Yes, we made arrangements to sell it. Then I asked RED how I can get it transferred to the new owner. They told me about the 90 day warranty. I arranged with the current company to consign it in a payment plan over the course of the warranty period. They pay me money as the time is used up. I can still use it on occasion at no charge. It is still technically mine as it's in my name and I own it. In the ARRI forum that would be a hella long winded point to make to say when my basic point is why I made arrangements to have it sold over the course of the warranty period. Would you like me to go back and edit my ARRI post to read "That's why I TRIED to sell it"? It makes no difference to me. RED has me as an owner of one shiny EPIC-M which I am. If I made you excited by simplifying my point in the ARRI forum to express why it is all but out the door, I apologize. I know you guys are in super bees nest mode right now. But combing through syntax is a bit odd, eh? You can see my argument with Jarred about the warranty and my attempts to sell it last fall on the "Red Armor" thread. You can see my old post putting it up for sale here on RedUser. I pulled it down when I thought I had a seller. The 90 day warranty period ruined that for me. So it is in a state of being my camera and also having it be used by others while they pay it off over time. Bored yet?

I expressed everything I had to express in the Red Armor post. It's all out there. There is nothing to hide. My name and company are below these words. They are on the ARRI forum. I assume people read both.
 
Chris Smith said:
Yes, we made arrangements to sell it. Then I asked RED how I can get it transferred to the new owner. They told me about the 90 day warranty. I arranged with the current company to consign it in a payment plan over the course of the warranty period. They pay me money as the time is used up. I can still use it on occasion at no charge. It is still technically mine as it's in my name and I own it. In the ARRI forum that would be a hella long winded point to make to say when my basic point is why I made arrangements to have it sold over the course of the warranty period. Would you like me to go back and edit my ARRI post to read "That's why I TRIED to sell it"? It makes no difference to me. RED has me as an owner of one shiny EPIC-M which I am. If I made you excited by simplifying my point in the ARRI forum to express why it is all but out the door, I apologize. I know you guys are in super bees nest mode right now. But combing through syntax is a bit odd, eh? You can see my argument with Jarred about the warranty and my attempts to sell it last fall on the "Red Armor" thread. You can see my old post putting it up for sale here on RedUser. I pulled it down when I thought I had a seller. The 90 day warranty period ruined that for me. So it is in a state of being my camera and also having it be used by others while they pay it off over time. Bored yet?

I expressed everything I had to express in the Red Armor post. It's all out there. There is nothing to hide. My name and company are below these words. They are on the ARRI forum. I assume people read both.
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So just to clarify... are you now doing a lease to own agreement for your EPIC-M to a third party?
 
Chris Smith said:
Bored yet?
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Chris, I can't speak for everyone but I do think it might be nice to move on. Looks like you guys are doing some good work, which in the end is all that matters. I think you have some valid points about Alexa. I think you also recognize that RED is a powerful tool too. Everyone seems very much on edge these past few days, even I have felt a bit on edge which is kind of rare for me. Let's just celebrate the choices we have available to us. RED has said in the past they would prefer the discussions revolve around RED cameras. Although I personally don't see the problem in having some healthy discussions about other tools, especially when it's beneficial knowledge to a large community like this, I have to respect that this is Jarred's house. He built it, he runs it, and we need to respect that.

I'd advocate for considering closing this thread. Jim made a decision. Is there much else to discuss?
 
Mark Phelan said:
Gavin, those were but a few of the posts that Chris made, all fine and acceptable. It was some of the other jabs taken that I was considering. I was only addressing his analogy as erroneous and his reply was still as such, but no matter. He has his opinion and is welcome to it, but they are laced with digs and jabs to make his point, which are unnecessary. Statements like:

"They don't care how lightweight an EPIC is, or how much you didn't have to pay for upgrades, or how good the community is, or how often Jim posts in the middle of the night. The Alexa has an amazing look and that is all they care about. I feel the same. I wish my Alexa was as lightweight and small as my EPIC, but the image easily makes up for it (and not needing to deal with fan speed management or needing a Pro I/O module helps a lot as well)." He's cherry-picking.
[...]

"Producers would rather the latter as they aren't camera owners. Same with colorists. They like that the image looks almost perfect straight out of the gate rather than messing with secondaries to get all the colors in order and that saves a lot of time and money. There are many, many reasons beyond things that RED owners enjoy about their cams."

He is welcome to his opinion, skewed as it might be, but why does he have such animus for the RED? I'm curious too, why anyone would go and buy an Epic M knowing it was a beta camera and then complain about it? That is odd behavior to me and thus, his comments ring hollow.
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That's not cherry picking or elevating in my opinion. He's just repeating exactly what I hear from producers and directors shooting National TV spots. They don't own cameras. They don't even really care about daily rental rates. They just think it looks good. That's not "Animus" to Red. That's preference and everyone is entitled to their opinion on what subjectively looks better. The DP isn't carrying around the camera so they don't care how heavy it is. Most of these DPs are used to large Arri 435s etc, so the alexa is already small in their minds.

If a colorist is having trouble with RED but not Alexa I doubt it's bias--like he said a colorist doesn't care if firmware updates are free or not. ;) Liking Alexa isn't some moral weakness or conspiracy against RED. Red and Alexa are different enough that people are bound to have a preference.
 
Chris Smith said:
As a guy that owned an EPIC-M for 5 months then sold it to get an Alexa I can tell you it was simply put, the image. period. That's what I get paid to turn-in. It's the most beautiful digital camera right now. End of story. If the EPIC looked remotely in the ballpark as good, I would have been more than happy to keep it. If RED can make a good looking sensor in the future I will use it as well. We're still talking about cameras because they make pretty pictures, right?
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http://www.arridigital.com/forum/in...i1s4jm48tt6sn9mr6&topic=733.msg11358#msg11358

Chris Smith said:
But combing through syntax is a bit odd, eh?
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Chris,

I don't think it's combing through syntax when you stated that you sold your EPIC-M to purchase an Alexa. Judging by your paragraph a reader would only interpret it as you sold it after only using it for five months... as you plainly stated.

Have you tried out an EPIC with the new color science?
 
It's hard to move on when Jim Jannard himself starts posts like these. We have an ARRI Alexa user on here... great... I have no issues with that whatsoever. I am curious to know if he's compared the Alexa to a EPIC with the latest color science. If in his opinion the Alexa is better from a filmic image point of view... I would like to know if that person thinks it's RED color science or if it's the sensor itself that produces the difference. Obviously if it's the color science... that can always be improved easily... as it has.
 
I am ready to move on. Thank you one and all for sharing your thoughts. Some really interesting perspectives between the attacks. At the end of the day, it will all sort itself out.

Steve, you have an amazing ability to hold your head in stressful situations and maintain perspective. It is my favorite trait in a person and a much needed quality on a film set. I'd hire you any day.

The good thing about the internet is it's all traceable in the future which will separate the wheat from the chaff.

cheers.
 
To all my new friends in which I've had a spirited discussion today,


I have not tried the new RC3. I did state that earlier in this thread. I would also like to point out from the beginning I was trying to play the devil's advocate coming from someone who owns/owned both cameras and used them both in production. As Steve and others pointed out which I now heed as absolute truth is that it is a RED forum and it's "Jarred's House". I tried to say it was my fault in many pages of threads today that I walked into a forum that wants to have one viewpoint and that does indeed probably accidentally make me a troll. I kind of thought with the popularity of the forum , It was kind of open to all discussions and viewpoints. Like I also said, I rarely show up.


The reason I stated on ARRI forum it was sold is for the same reason I made the mistake of stating my opinion today, I was trying to not be furious about RED "screwing" me over in the attempted sale of my EPIC-M. If I had also gone on a tirade about how RED treated me when trying to sell my EPIC on ARRI or on the RED forum, you guys would have imploded into the singularity. I had complained so vocally on RED USER with Jarred I decided to treat it as though it was gone even though I was stuck with it. I made alternate plans which I described to bide the time until RED offered a RED Armor I could buy for the cam.


I was an EXTREMELY loyal customer of RED's and getting my EPIC last June was all over my Facebook page with huge smiles. I was so proud. I was already trying to figure out which parts I was going to buy to make the dream package. I shot with the EPIC all summer (I direct TV commercials). I went to a few transfer sessions where it was a strange coincidence that both colorists complained about yellows being out of control . And how it will take them extra time to grab all the skin tones and fix them. I'm sure you have seen that Peter Jackson had all the faces of his actors over-makeup'd to make up for that fact. I then had one of the colorists tell ask me why I still insisted on using a RED. I though it was in poor taste for him to mention that in front of the agency producer. She then spoke up and said, "Why don't you use an Alexa? Most directors use it and we kind of accept it as the replacement for film". So clearly there is already agency bias. I had tested an Alexa vs Red MX at Panavision months before and the Alexa looked quite noticeably better, but since I was a huge RED fan I was stubborn enough to think with the right mix of custom curves in Resolve I could get it to look like Alexa. I got some that made it "Alexa Like". I then posted on Red User an open note to RED in the "Skin Tones" thread last fall. This was my first distaste I felt about RED as Graeme and Dean kept side-stepping and belittling the Alexa and showing little chip charts. MMost and some other agreed with what I was saying. My post in general said, I LOVE my Epic, but want it to look as good as the Alexa and I got negativity. That was a turn off. I finally decided to do my next shoot with an Alexa (even though I wouldn't get any camera rental) and was blown away. Honestly my hope was that I would see the results and say, "meh" not much difference as I REALLY wanted to keep the EPIC. But it was a massive difference. Not only the use of the camera but also most importantly the results in the transfer session. I was sold. I put the EPIC-M up for sale, and found a buyer. Everything is great. Then I asked RED how to transfer the cam. I was actually in person at their Irvine office when I asked because I was picking up the EPIC getting it's D-Pad fixed. I found out I would have to pay $1500'ish (eval and transfer fees) to get it transferred and my 2 year warranty would be reduced to 3 mos if it's sold. I called AbelCine as I was about to buy an ARRI from them. I asked how much it costs me to transfer an Alexa and how much my warranty would be reduced. They said ZERO. I told the seller the predicament and he declined to buy the cam without a full warranty. I was furious. I asked my friend Dino who is an LA DIT I use a lot if Jarred ever reads his emails. He said yes. I wrote Jarred a very respectful note how I thought that was unjust. Never heard a peep. So I posted in the Red Armor forum post. And again, I received an amazing amount of resistance I felt.


I found out how a bunch of companies where doing consignments to get their EPIC paid off without having to use it. I told Jarred in the post I could do that but would much rather pay him money for an extended warranty and let him know who really has the camera. At first he was defiant "East Chris, go buy an ARRI" but then relented and said he would may work on something in the future. I just now for the first time in months emailed RED to see if I can buy an extended warranty if I sell the EPIC-M. We'll see what the answer is.


SO, why did I not mention all this in the ARRI thread OR the RED thread? Because I was already hostile about it (rightly so I believe) publicly with Jarred. He said he would work on it and I told him I didn't want to have to do a consign thing, I would rather pay him money and sell it for real. So I considered that a truce. As long as I can't sell it with a full 1 or 2 year warranty, then I will make money off it however I can whether it's in my house or someone else's.


Other than that ARRI post and my post today on the forum that got everyone mad at me I have not publicly complained about the RED and how much happier I am with the ARRI and how angry I became with RED as a company. If RED were cool through me trying to sell my cam, and if someone asked why I bought an ARRI instead, I would simply say, "It has an aesthetic I prefer" which of course is the truth. It's certainly not the size, weight and price. But after this experience, RED can make the best looking cam on the planet ever (in my eyes) and I would have to seriously tread lightly into buying one again. I would if it was the best image, as that is indeed my job to turn in the best images, but it would make me seriously slow at wanting to. Maybe Dragon will change my mind.


So being vague about the selling status of my camera was trying not to complain about the EPIC image AND how I *feel* that RED boned me with my warranty. I would think based on a few comments I made today defending a camera I like made so many people angry, I would think starting up my furious anger at my odd RED ownership predicament would have sent people into the abyss. Especially on the ARRI forum. I was TRYING to be as civil as possible. Clearly my anger still shows through my posts and that is a bad thing. I will not post or go to RED User anymore for everyone's benefit.


This is as honest as I can possibly get. I made a massive error in posting my opinion/venting my feelings today. I am your new favorite punching bag. I accept that. My truth is my truth, that truth is not proper etiquette here. Understood. I will not be replying anymore to this. Go read my history in any forum you like to know my feelings. I can also give my Vimeo as well if anyone wants to see what different shoots I've done with different cameras.


sincerely,


Chris Smith

edit: Here is the Vimeo anyways: http://vimeo.com/clsmith
 
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Don't have time to read this tome at the present. Will it be on Amazon later?
 
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Thanks for your post Chris. I actually liked the thread over an ARRI forum where some were looking at the drawbacks of a modular system... such as reliability, weather proofing, etc. I could appreciate the decision of others.
 
Jannard said:
We just aren't up for the grief. We have better things to do.

There are lots of options for you to consider. I hope that RED is one of them.

Jim
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Hey, I like that, that's what you call, "A good attitude". Why play that phony game, the real game is making movies!
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Thanks for your post Chris. I actually liked the thread over an ARRI forum where some were looking at the drawbacks of a modular system... such as reliability, weather proofing, etc. I could appreciate the decision of others.
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Lets see, my so called reliable system is Obsolete, now how reliable is that?
 
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