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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cancel that thought...

you know that your beloved alexa look is created with a low con filter and an internal LUT? If you cant let the epic look like alexa, you dont know your tools.

Chris Smith said:
I have an EPIC and Alexa and use the Alexa 99% of the time. It has nothing to do with workflow, post houses have both workflows down easily. It's simply the image. Also, my Alexa shoots 120 fps using the entire sensor which would be my pref over cropping the sensor. 300fps crops the sensor so extremely I consider it unusable. Would rather just rent a Phantom. Dragon will change this of course, but it will also still possibly be stuck with the "RED look". People like myself don't just pay 50-70% more money for an Alexa for the hell of it, there's a very good reason. Producer's reasons for asking for an Alexa is because of results. They don't care how lightweight an EPIC is, or how much you didn't have to pay for upgrades, or how good the community is, or how often Jim posts in the middle of the night. The Alexa has an amazing look and that is all they care about. I feel the same. I wish my Alexa was as lightweight and small as my EPIC, but the image easily makes up for it (and not needing to deal with fan speed management or needing a Pro I/O module helps a lot as well).

If you love your RED camera, then love on it all day and rejoice in the fantastic technology at a fairly cheap price, but I wouldn't go making assumptions on why other people choose the cams they choose. Just putting in my 2 cents as it bugs me every time I hear people give what I feel are false justifications why they think people all don't use REDs all the time. There is no "Alexa problem". RED is leading the way for getting a lot of stuff for less money (although BlackMagic just made a major dent in that ratio) and ARRI is leading the way in best image. Producers would rather the latter as they aren't camera owners. Same with colorists. They like that the image looks almost perfect straight out of the gate rather than messing with secondaries to get all the colors in order and that saves a lot of time and money. There are many, many reasons beyond things that RED owners enjoy about their cams. Many things to consider. No camera is THE answer. I wouldn't see it as a problem that you can't get everyone on the planet to use the same thing you own.

Personally I don't care if the Zacuto tests exist or not as I can do my own Red vs Alexa tests all day in my pajamas. But I certainly don't understand what all the animosity is about it.
Click to expand...
 
Jannard said:
We are going to take down our offer to do a comparison test at RSH. The grief and complication doesn't warrant the effort.
Click to expand...

This was never a good idea anyway. No matter what the outcome, any test done by the manufactures themselves would be considered "biased"

Let the third-party do the "shootouts"
 
I think, just keep to the Red plan and don't worry about the competition. Already fate has been good with the 3d rigs and the major productions being shot this year. You can't try and be everything to everyone.

Red has carved a good niche. It really needs to further the personal pursuit rather than the competitive one.

For what i am interest in personally in style and needs, it has all the hallmarks, and so i am not interested in the Alexa or dslr's at all.

There's still a lot needed to be done to make the dsmc system really working and pushing its advantages. For me its a tool which needs to be open and inclusive to take advantage of its very nature.

Never before has technology and distribution seen such change as what is unfolding before our eyes in this industry. All we can do is follow our own integrity.

And that's my point. When you follow your own integrity, you don't care what the competition is doing because there is no competition. You are making choices on your own individual path. There's no race to the end... you can't take money with you after you have died. There's an integrity of individual purpose to uphold and maintain above all other. Otherwise, what is the point?
 
Chris Smith said:
I have an EPIC and Alexa and use the Alexa 99% of the time. It has nothing to do with workflow, post houses have both workflows down easily. It's simply the image. Also, my Alexa shoots 120 fps using the entire sensor which would be my pref over cropping the sensor. 300fps crops the sensor so extremely I consider it unusable. Would rather just rent a Phantom. Dragon will change this of course, but it will also still possibly be stuck with the "RED look". People like myself don't just pay 50-70% more money for an Alexa for the hell of it, there's a very good reason. Producer's reasons for asking for an Alexa is because of results. They don't care how lightweight an EPIC is, or how much you didn't have to pay for upgrades, or how good the community is, or how often Jim posts in the middle of the night. The Alexa has an amazing look and that is all they care about. I feel the same. I wish my Alexa was as lightweight and small as my EPIC, but the image easily makes up for it (and not needing to deal with fan speed management or needing a Pro I/O module helps a lot as well).

If you love your RED camera, then love on it all day and rejoice in the fantastic technology at a fairly cheap price, but I wouldn't go making assumptions on why other people choose the cams they choose. Just putting in my 2 cents as it bugs me every time I hear people give what I feel are false justifications why they think people all don't use REDs all the time. There is no "Alexa problem". RED is leading the way for getting a lot of stuff for less money (although BlackMagic just made a major dent in that ratio) and ARRI is leading the way in best image. Producers would rather the latter as they aren't camera owners. Same with colorists. They like that the image looks almost perfect straight out of the gate rather than messing with secondaries to get all the colors in order and that saves a lot of time and money. There are many, many reasons beyond things that RED owners enjoy about their cams. Many things to consider. No camera is THE answer. I wouldn't see it as a problem that you can't get everyone on the planet to use the same thing you own.

Personally I don't care if the Zacuto tests exist or not as I can do my own Red vs Alexa tests all day in my pajamas. But I certainly don't understand what all the animosity is about it.
Click to expand...

Oh my.....
Your so lucky Im not a moderator on this forum.

I've never heard so much poo in a single paragraph for a such a long time.

I shoot Alexa's and EPiC's side by side some days... and there is no way in hell some HD PRO RES Alexa image is better than a RAW 5k image from RED.
I think your knowledge in the grading suite must be quite limited to be farting out statements that.
You really need to be more educated I think about how to get the most from your cameras files.

I can make my RED files look like ARRI images so easily... I do it all the time... but there is no way you can make a ALEXA image as sharp or as clean or a big as an EPIC image... I can't get the stills from the ALEXA into print ad's billboards either... resoltuion just does not let me get any where near EPIC specs...

Chris... you need someone to show you how to use your RED properly i think. Or at least show you how to use your RED RAW files correctly.

EPIC%20-%20arri.jpg
 
Yep.... cant get clearer than that Mark......Plus the horse and you said poo.... LMFAO
 
All Mark says is true. Allways.
Especially if you have the needs he describes :)

But of course you can filter yourself to look like an Alexa. :) Isn't that common knowledge?
 
After the last couple of days im not sure what is common knowledge any more :) ...Steve / Zacuto gave Jim the chalenge to tell the difference between the cameras ? if its true and you cant them apart what was the point of the test ? Oh well i dont know but its fun to think about this stuff :)
 
:beatdeadhorse5:
 
oh god... a Norwegian and two Australians... god help us. - and what he said^ -beating that poor dead horse.
 
He looked like he was scared of something though... I'm not sure maybe something off camera?
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
you know that your beloved alexa look is created with a low con filter and an internal LUT? If you cant let the epic look like alexa, you dont know your tools.
Click to expand...

I have a quote from Graeme from this very board that says this is not true. May I dig it up?

Re: Not knowing grading systems.

I have spent hours with LUTS and curves with side by side images and tests and can easily get approximations like the samples that were just posted. But I don't think you are taking into account the details. What you are doing is like taking marginal sounding speakers and messing with a graphic EQ to try and sound close to balanced studio monitors. Then because your ear isn't refined enough, you call it done. I would rather have the high end , well balanced studio monitors in the first place. I'm not only talking about me, I'm referring to 2 different colorists who tell me how much extra work it takes for them to get a decent look from EPIC because of all the secondary work needed to get the colors balanced, most notably yellows and skin tones. This is the cue for you to tell me how they don't know their systems. I won't get into name dropping their credentials, but suffice to say they do. Granted this is before RC3, but I don't see how RC3 changed things much.

I should have known that I cannot try and have a balanced conversation on this board about the nature of various cams I own without, "If RED's not the best at everything, then you suck!". Unfortunate. But my point still stands. Producer's ask for Alexa for many reasons most notably it's look. I do not disagree with anyone who says EPIC looks clean and sharp. Absolutely. 1000%. But there's the aesthetic of the image.
 
guys lets be honest , Alexa's footage have a beautiful look to them the skin tone is perfect and the dual gain structure for handling 7 stop over expose for iso 800 is amazing , in the other hand the resolution the high speed and the size and the price of epic is not comparable to any of other camera , i personally like the look of Alexa but how a company treat you as a customer is much important for me as a rental company , so i never buy Alexa as far as they treat people like their slaves even if Alexa is the best camera in the planet.
 
Chris Smith said:
I have a quote from Graeme from this very board that says this is not true. May I dig it up?

Re: Not knowing grading systems.

I have spent hours with LUTS and curves with side by side images and tests and can easily get approximations like the samples that were just posted. But I don't think you are taking into account the details. What you are doing is like taking marginal sounding speakers and messing with a graphic EQ to try and sound close to balanced studio monitors. Then because your ear isn't refined enough, you call it done. I would rather have the high end , well balanced studio monitors in the first place. I'm not only talking about me, I'm referring to 2 different colorists who tell me how much extra work it takes for them to get a decent look from EPIC because of all the secondary work needed to get the colors balanced, most notably yellows and skin tones. This is the cue for you to tell me how they don't know their systems. I won't get into name dropping their credentials, but suffice to say they do. Granted this is before RC3, but I don't see how RC3 changed things much.

I should have known that I cannot try and have a balanced conversation on this board about the nature of various cams I own without, "If RED's not the best at everything, then you suck!". Unfortunate. But my point still stands. Producer's ask for Alexa for many reasons most notably it's look. I do not disagree with anyone who says EPIC looks clean and sharp. Absolutely. 1000%. But there's the aesthetic of the image.
Click to expand...
Chris, I think there are some objective people here. But when it comes to cameras, I don't think there is such a thing as true objectivity. Especially in the case of a comparison between Alexa and Epic. It tends to be very subjective. In my opinion, there's no better way to make your point then showing examples, visual examples. Shoot a scene with both cams, post the results and have a discussion. Timur did it recently with the Scarlet and the F3. Turns out he needed to refine some things. It was a beneficial discussion. I welcome these kinds of things. If it's not appropriate for Reduser, host it elsewhere. Saying it and showing it are two different things. Those who have never used an Alexa may not have a solid reference point for comparison.

I don't think your points are invalid. I do think Alexa is chosen for more reasons than just workflow. I know several DPs who really like the image the camera produces. People may react emotionally here, but that's because it's a passionate forum, pretty much unrivaled anywhere on the web when it comes to camera forums. But personally, I am not that interested in pissing matches. I like productive discussion, because quite often it can be a learning experience for everyone involved. It's the kind of vibe you want on a community based forum. Everyone striving to get better, willing to help each other get better, and in the end a great resource of information.
 
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