Can You Shoot @ 15fps, then in POST Increase to 30fps, to Gain ONE Stop ??

[George D.]

When we shoot for television with our Red-One, we shoot at 30fps.

If there is a circumstance where we desperately need to stop the lens down one stop, is it possible to undercrank at 15fps to gain that extra stop, then in post, raise it back up again to 30fps in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 without any quality loss, weird effects, or any other problems?

No, there is NO other way around it. We cannot increase the lighting, or use a faster lens, or increase the ISO, etc. I'm asking this question to just see if it's a possibility at all to alter frame rates to get the result we're after.

All I want to know, is if it is a possibility, and what the best way is to go about it. In CS5.5 would I just double the speed, or actually change the frame rate? If it's the frame rate, how exactly do I go about that?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks for your time.

.

 

[D Fuller]

Yes. In Premiere you reinterpret the footage to the desired frame rate. Assuming that your project frame rate is 29.97 and you shot at 15fps varispeed 15fps, then right-click (control-click on mac) on the file in the Premiere bin and choose "modify / interpret footage" from the menu that pops up. click the "Assume this frame rate:" radio button and set the frame rate to 15 fps. Premiere will take care of making the proper frame rate (29.97 or 59.97 or whatever you're using) on export.

You'll have to judge for yourself whether the result is OK for your purposes. (I'd recommend testing in your back yard before you get to the critical shot that needs the treatment.) But I used to do this all the time with film in those situations and it was quite acceptable (given the circumstances). Here's what you'll see -- the resolution is exactly the same as at higher frame rates, but motion resolution is not, so there is more motion blur. Whether that's a problem really depends on the subject. You should also test panning shots so that yoyu can see how the motion blur resolves when the camera pans as opposed to something moving in the frame.

But once you know what to expect, I'd say it is a very useful technique.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

If there is a circumstance where we desperately need to stop the lens down one stop, is it possible to undercrank at 15fps to gain that extra stop, then in post, raise it back up again to 30fps in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 without any quality loss, weird effects, or any other problems?

It's all going to depend on what you are shooting. If there is no movement in the frame you may not even need to retime it. Quality loss is unavoidable. Weird effects are likely. Premiere isn't really the best way to do it. Using Kronos or Twixtor will give you much better results. What are you filming?

 

[George D.]

It's all going to depend on what you are shooting. If there is no movement in the frame you may not even need to retime it. Quality loss is unavoidable. Weird effects are likely. Premiere isn't really the best way to do it. Using Kronos or Twixtor will give you much better results. What are you filming?

Sorry, that's confidential.

But, I can tell by the responses so far, that it won't work, mainly because there will be a LOT of movement in the shots.

Thanks.

.

 

[ericyoung]

Why can't you increase the ISO and denoise with Neatvideo? Hard to imagine why that is a non-option.

 

[George D.]

Why can't you increase the ISO and denoise with Neatvideo? Hard to imagine why that is a non-option.

Mainly because I am already a the maximum ISO of 2000. Any higher than that would create an unacceptable noise, even with Neatvideo.

.

 

[Mike Harrington]

Going from 15 to 30 will make the footage look horrible...
Even with twixtor or some other pixel motion / optical flow retimer there will be major artifacts with motion....and low light with noise will cause this to look even worse with any kind of movement....

After your question yesterday, I shot tests all the way to 12000 iso

If you shoot the noise chart....neat video will give you a 93% quality noise profile...
They class anything over 60 as high quality...

While 12000 was unusable.....3200 was somewhat...this is on an epic however....not sure on the red ones performance at these levels

I would never recommend shooting it....but I believe you can cleanly remove a lot of the noise...if this is just going to 1080 the results will be decent

This is only if you really have no option....
....as you indicated before you had to go f8-f11 for some reason...
If you are willing to shoot 15 fps and ISO the crap out of the camera...I suggest opening the lenses up first....

Not sure why having the lenses at f8 is so important that you would consider shooting at 15fps to compensate

 

[ericyoung]

You could also consider opening up the shutter to 270 or even 360deg. That would gain you half or a full stop at the expense of some increased blur (but nowhere near as bad as shooting 15fps for 30)

 

[Shane Kelly]

George, I think that you need:
a. a lighting budget
or
b. a different camera.

15 fps would look ok if there was no movement. Otherwise, forget about it

 

[George D.]

OK everybody.

I got the message, and I see clearly why it would not work. It was just a thought.

Thanks to everyone for such knowledgeable and informative answers. I really appreciate the help.

.

 

[Angelo Lorenzo]

You could also consider opening up the shutter to 270 or even 360deg. That would gain you half or a full stop at the expense of some increased blur (but nowhere near as bad as shooting 15fps for 30)

I agree, a 360 degree shutter is a far more viable approach than to compensate with a 180degree shutter at 15fps.

With 15fps you can either retime (using Twixtor, Kronos, and so on) to resample missing frames or just shoot at a timebase of 29.97 so the camera is undercranking so you just get fast motion (fine, again, if these are establishing shots).

If your final deliverable isn't 4K, then I'd look into shooting high ISO with the Canon C series. I've seen their high iso stuff on the big screen and it's noisy but still pleasant.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

George, maybe you can get to shoot on a preproduction dragon - contact Brent or Jarred. Depending on the project, but maybe this is interesting for them, too.