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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can you pull your own focus?

Can you pull your own focus?

  • I can do it with one hand tied behind my back!

    Votes: 13 9.1%

  • If you're experienced and alert, it's do-able most of the time.

    Votes: 102 71.3%

  • Impossible. You will always need another person beside you to focus on, uh, focusing.

    Votes: 28 19.6%
  • Total voters
    143
All I am saying is take focusing seriously, especially for anything to be seen on a theatrical screen. I use experienced professional focus-pullers on all my stuff in 35mm, and there are always some focus problems. A close-up at T/2.8 on the big screen is barely in focus even when it is in focus -- all it takes is a slight movement of an actor leaning forward and back to see the focus drift out of sync with the pulling.

Take follow-focusing seriously. It is hard work. It is not easy.

I don't know how I can make myself any clearer. Maybe it's because I see most of my stuff on 50' or 75' screens that I am quite convinced that it is not easy if you are shooting for that sort of presentation. But even now, don't take my word for it -- just watch some programming on HDTV shot in 35mm and notice how many soft shots there are. And these are professional productions with real budgets, experienced people shooting. They have the same problems I regularly have. It's just the nature of shooting actors moving around at wide apertures on long lenses in tight shots. There is no "secret" to it -- it's just really, really hard to keep that sort of stuff sharp all the time. It takes experience, it takes time, it takes the right equipment, it takes patience. Just watch an episode of CSI or Law and Order in some tight close-up that follows a character around a room. And that's not a knock against these focus pullers because they are doing top-notch work. It's just the reality of the depth of field of a moving close-ups shot in 35mm at T/2.8 on a 100mm lens, let's say.

Go see a movie in the theater -- for every ten missed-focus shots you catch, there were probably 100 edited out. Just the other day I was watching "Sleepy Hollow" again on DVD, and there is a tilt-up from Johnny Depp's hand holding a tea cup to a low-angle of his face in a medium close-up, not a tight close-up, and it's soft.

Focusing a shot is easy. It's following focus that is hard. Hard, hard, hard, hard. But I've only shot 30 features and a TV series, who knows, maybe it will suddenly get easy on the next show and I'll change my mind. But for now, I'm sticking to what I've learned over the years.
 
There are many highly skilled camera assistants and focus pullers that take an entire career to develop, learn and perfect pulling perfect fluent focus. The skill of professional focus puller is nothing to be laughed at, be-littled or underestimated. I find it very insulting hearing that a focus puller is not a needed or a useful member of the camera team. I guess it must be because all feature and TV IATSE operators suck so bad that they have to have a focus puller. Ask any experienced camera 600 professional what the hardest job on set is and they all will tell you the focus puller.

I was working on a large feature 6 years ago and had to pull focus on a 600 with a doubler 1 take stunt car shot. I held it sharp even after the front grill badge filled the entire frame. After the shot the EPK clown comments saying "I dont know why you guys need focus pullers. I kept it sharp all by myself.". All the while he is shooting it with a beta cam at f16, what I fucking joke. A bunch of us focus pullers on the 6 camera shot would have been insulted if the entire camera department wasn't laughing so hard. We all realized he had a bad case of headupass.

head·up·ass
Pronunciation: \ˈhəad-op-ass\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin: poop of finding
Date: 1973
Meaning: To be one that is so clueless that they have a better understanding of the inside of their colon then of what they speak.
 
Gibby,

I truly believe that you are good at pulling your own focus. However, as Finner points out, if you are doing anything with moving subject, close to the lens, god help you. I personaly try to shoot at a 2.8-4, maybe 5.6, but i don't like to stop the lens down more than that.

You have to remember that there is a lot of fantasy on this forum.

"I can use my Bogen tripod with the red, Nikon glass is the same thing they used on "Borne", Arri AKS are over priced because I don't have any money to use a $3k follow focus on a wedding video......"

I say all this because a lot of people that purchased this camera have no idea what they have gotten into. It does not serve the common good to say that, "I can do it and so can you."

You can do it because you have been doing it for 10 plus years. The best ACs I have worked with, can nail focus at a t-2 about 90-95 percent of the time. When thats their only job.

I have worked on movies where the 1st AC was fired for buzzing the lead for 15 frames. Surf videos, and major motion pictures are different things.

I respect your skill at what you do, I used to be able to do it myself. But like any thing that you wish to do at a top tier level, it has to be what you do all the time.

I am a very good camera operator. And by very good, I mean that I am evaluating my frame, planing my next move, paying attention to my position on the dolly, knowing that when the stunt guy jumps of the cliff it is 2 and a 1/4 turns on the tilt wheel before I see the air bag. If I had to pay attention to all this and more and pull focus, I would shoot myself in the face rather than deal with the stress of doing all the jobs at once.

I agree with most of what you have said in your posts. I get the impression that you have not done a lot of high end feature film/tv stuff (dramatic).

I just want those that have not been experienced in this to appreciate the level of difficulty in doing this job well, not to say, "Gibby said focus was easy!"

All that said, please understand that this is a friendly discourse, and I truly respect the type of shooting you do. I learned a tremendous amount from a guy who shot for NFL films, that I assisted for. He was the best Doc shooter I ever saw. Being able to do the left eye, right eye thing, and anticipate what was going to happen, made him extremely good. Just remember that those of you that have the gift are not the norm.

Good shooting,

Nick
 
People who want a RED camera are going to buy one, 35mm depth of field or not (and more than likely, 35mm depth of field is one of the reasons they are buying the camera...)

So there's no reason to not warn people that using a RED camera for traditional narrative productions (that would normally use 35mm cameras) will require dealing with the same challenges in regards to focusing, and looking for solutions. Because simply lighting all your scenes to T/5.6 may not be practical for every type of production. Maybe you have a night-exterior-heavy story that will all be shot at T/2 to T/2.8 (like what I'm going through right now!)

I had to light a rural road the other night -- I had two 18K HMI's on full spot on a 125' condor... and I only got a T/1.4 at 640 ASA out of them because of the distance and area I was trying to light.

Sure you can pull your own focus. And maybe you'll be good at it. And maybe not. And maybe the time you missed it was a key take of a close-up on an actress who never repeated that moment in the other takes. That's the nature of making movies. It's hard work. It takes skill and experience to become good at it. I'm drained after every one of my productions... and I'm not even operating or pulling-focus. It's mentally and emotionally exhausting, totally demanding of everything you've ever learned, and even then, you're always pushing yourself to do something better and try something harder. There's nothing easy about it. There's nothing easy about lighting, or operating, or focusing, whatever, not in total over the course of a feature shoot. Sure, moments now and then aren't so hard, but the overall experience is taxing on every level.

Focusing is hard, so if you're going to do it yourself, you better take the time to get good at it.
 
David,

I don't think anyone is disputing your comments on focusing and follow focusing for narrative cinema in shallow DOF situations. Its good input...

That said, there is a myriad of genres besides narrative cinema that RED ONE is and has been used for - and many of them rarely use shallow DOF, are largely shot in medium to deep DOF, and thus enable relatively easy sight focusing in 4k. The operative word is "relatively". Like anything, practice makes perfect, and even then aptitude can't be learned.

There are certain genres destined for the big screen that are not narrative cinema. Just one example: both of the features I detailed in my previous post, for which I am an EP, director, DP, and cinematographer for, are in the adventure travel & nature genres, will be in theaters nationwide (and beyond), are largely shot in 4k with RED ONE, and except for a small percentage of shallow DOF creative b-roll, are almost entirely shot in medium to deep DOF - and we're using no ACs or focus pullers - all operators are focusing by themselves. We have about 400 hours of footage already, and buzzed focus has not been a problem because DOF needs are generally medium to deep for this genre, and we're using highly-experienced professionals. We own a Sony 4k projector and have a 24' screen at our primary editing facility, so we have a good handle of how the focusing went for each day's shooting.

You and me have been down this road before on some threads, at which point you remarked that you have to remember that you are almost always speaking about narrative cinema when you give advice here. That's fine, and narrative cinema is interesting, but the field procedures for large crew, union, narrative cinema are not directly relative for many of the other genres that RED ONE is now, and has been used in. I am an advocate for those other genres of production, with their alternate ways of using RED ONE.

Let me tie this all together:

Focusing in 4k (or for that matter 3k) should definitely be taken seriously.

Everyone should practice, practice, and practice. There is no substitute for time on camera.

Shooting narrative cinema in shallow DOF is a challenge, and one best suited for a traditional crew composition.

RED ONE is used in a wide array of genres and sub-genres that have little or nothing in common with narrative cinema.

RED ONE, in 4k, can be effectively sight focused by an experienced sole operator in medium to deep DOF situations, and certain shallow DOF situations.

The "right" focusing method is the one that produces in-focus shots for the production at hand. That can either be film-style focusing or sight focusing depending on the genre's DOF and production value needs.
 
I think your summation is accurate.

I just want any novices out there to be clear in regards to the difference between focusing a shot and following or keeping focus during a shot where the distance to the subject is constantly changing.

There are many aspects to the job of focusing and many tools out there to help in that regards, and many techniques to learn in how to do it in the different shooting situations. One solution or tool does not fit all situations.

So the only answer to a broad question like "can I do my own focusing?" is really "it just depends."
 
Last production I directed I used a brevis35 with a canon 50mm 1.8 and a 17-35 4.0 lens. It's hard to direct, light, keep track of continuity, doing every aspect of cinematography and in the end try to do follow focusing while watching performances... no wonder I had a mental breakdown at the end of the week :)

Most shots were handheld so if I missed on the follow focus I'd move the camera a little. But it's really hard and I sincerely need a camera operator on the next production. Especially since I'll probably be using longer lenses then.

So, conclusion is that I think you can do your own focusing, but I think it's only possible and safe when working with wider lenses and maybe even handheld cameras.

But I sometimes like the "not so perfect" focus. That people sometimes gets out of focus and comes back in again. Of course it's always best if it's based on what the frame is telling storywise.
 
Hi,

Focus errors will be very much more obvious when using the RED one.

Stephen

Glazarus said:
Last production I directed I used a brevis35 with a canon 50mm 1.8 and a 17-35 4.0 lens. It's hard to direct, light, keep track of continuity, doing every aspect of cinematography and in the end try to do follow focusing while watching performances... no wonder I had a mental breakdown at the end of the week :)

Most shots were handheld so if I missed on the follow focus I'd move the camera a little. But it's really hard and I sincerely need a camera operator on the next production. Especially since I'll probably be using longer lenses then.

So, conclusion is that I think you can do your own focusing, but I think it's only possible and safe when working with wider lenses and maybe even handheld cameras.

But I sometimes like the "not so perfect" focus. That people sometimes gets out of focus and comes back in again. Of course it's always best if it's based on what the frame is telling storywise.
Click to expand...
 
Gibby said:
I have a little time today. PM me your email address and in the next few days I'll email you some suggestions for techniques of directing, shooting, and focusing which have been effective for me.

Cheers...
Click to expand...

Gibby,

Can you share those suggestions on this thread? Thanks!

P.S. Does an evf or lcd factor in the success of pulling your own focus? (What do you use?)
 
Jason Ing said:
Gibby,

Can you share those suggestions on this thread? Thanks!

P.S. Does an evf or lcd factor in the success of pulling your own focus? (What do you use?)
Click to expand...

In my RED ONE experience, 8 months using RED One with the RED LCD, and 41/2 months using the RED EVF, sight focusing RED ONE is easier with the EVF. The EVF is 1280x848 with a very good diopter. I use it in black and white mode. Professional EVFs are almost always B&W, because its easier to see gradients of contrast and the borders and transition areas of focus. 2x image magnification and false color (when there is time), complete the tool sets. I also use the RED LCD (1024x600) quite a bit for certain types of shooting, and many times have both the EVF and LCD mounted, using the EVF when it makes the best sense for shots, and the LCD for high angle, low angle, etc. With practice, sight focusing can be done using the LCD at mid to stopped down apertures, but the EVF, with its higher resolution and excellent diopter, is easier to sight focus RED ONE with.
 
dof

dof

Maybe not just the right post but anyways...did anyone actually perform a test if the DoF on Red is the same as with s35mm film?

I was told on several occasions from different focus pullers and cam assistans that one should be really carefull and exact with focus pulling on Red and since I'm doing a feature shortly I was thinking (just to be really really sure) to take a long lens at T2, calculate my DoF, put objects on all three marks (close, far and exact distance where I still have focus), record a few seconds and ses the results on a really big screen...just to be sure I can rely on my s35mm DoF calculations...

Do you have any other idea or any other info I should consider about that matter?

Thanks,
Sabina
 
Pulling focus on your own is hard if you have not been shooting with 35mm depth of field for many years. I have mostly a background in video formats, shooting on cameras from the DVX100 through SDX900, with Betacam and other formats mixed in. I have shot with film cameras, but nothing worth mentioning. I have great eyesight, still pretty sharp. My coordination is pretty good, but not spectacular.

I have found in my time with the RED so far that there are some keys to having a shot at doing this by yourself.

1. Camera ergonomics. I'm still waiting on some components to finish my handheld configuration. Balance, EVF positioning, follow focus system etc will all need to be worked out to get it just right. Camera clunkiness will surely lead to focus clumsiness. I've been pulling focus directly from the lenses as I await my follow focus system. Talk about tough.

2. You'll need excellent to great hand eye coordination to pull off precise follow focus. This may seem obvious, but if you don't have it, it will take some time to develop it. Steve Gibby has it, as do many other experienced cameramen.

3. If you are coming from the 1/3" world this is going to be tough. Not always, but you really need to be prepared for everything. If you are shooting at wide open and trying to follow actors moving all over the frame, this could be a real challenge and probably one to not underestimate. I have found it quite challenging. It's okay when you have the ability to do a re-take, but not so good when you have to nail it the first time and you get it wrong. Even in documentary work, not finding focus quickly and accurately will get you in trouble. Yes, there is a bit more forgiveness than say a narrative film, but still you want to be able to nail it most of the time.

4. There's a lot more care that goes into making sure you're lenses are all working well, and your backfocus is dead-on. Again, if you are coming from a prosumer world, this will be something you'll need to keep on top of if you are doing your own camerawork and focus pulling i.e. there's no AC).

To me, when budget allows, it's a no-brainer to get an experienced focus puller. Not only will it keep you out of trouble with focus, it will allow you to concentrate on composition and lighting. Now, when budget doesn't allow for this position, then everyone needs to be on the same page in terms of what can and cannot be done. Careful planning should be done prior to the day of shooting so that you are not caught off guard trying to pull focus in a nearly impossible situation.

With all that RED offers in terms of resolution, RAW processing, interchangeable lenses, it is also challenging to work with if you don't have experience with 35mm gear. Having said that, as camera owners we are able to go out and get the experience and learn what works well in various circumstances.

I think Gibby, Finner, and David have all expressed a lot of reality in their posts. They are all very experienced at what they do, and the genres they work in, so there's a lot to learn there. Bottom line is, it's challenging, but the degree to which it is challenging depends on what you are doing with the camera. It all goes back to what Jim said early on, it's a professional camera and we should go into it with that mindset.

I look forward to working with and without a focus puller.
 
Steve thanks for your insightful post. I am coming from the 1/3" sensor prosumer world, so it is good to know that I'll need a ton of practice before expecting great results.

I'm starting to think a good compromise for me is a 2/3" sensor like the Scarlet...and or possibly a shoulder mounted 2/3" sensor cam.

I gotta believe if I go out a few times a week and practice in all different live situations and review my footage that evening...I gotta think I could get the hang of it in a month...that would be maybe 50-60 hours of doing it almost every day.

Well, I guess I'll never know till I try.

Thx again-
 
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