Can you change the project FPS of an R3D?

[Chris Bourke]

Hey guys,

I shot some stuff recently just for personal use, and it's 2K 300fps footage on a 23.98 timebase in camera.

One of my clients wants to use some of this footage in a TV show I shot, but I need to get it into 29.97 for broadcast...

I can't figure out a simple way to conform these 300fps clips from 23.98 to 29.97...it has to be a simple little metadata tweak right?

They're cutting in Avid, so I'm wanting to give them DNxHD clips out of RCX, but when I export them as 29.97 DNxHD's, they won't open in avid.
(I'm guessing that's because the R3D metadata is having an issue exporting at 29.97 since it's a 23.98 clip.)

For such a simple thing I'd usually do with cinema tools, I just can't figure out how to conform to 29.97 and leave it in .R3D.

:mad2:

Thanks in advance guys,
Chris

 

[David Battistella]

No. It's not a metadata tweak. It's just not that simple to alter TIMEBASE.

You can export an IMAGE sequence of .tiff, .jpeg or DPX. Then the avid can import the footage and interpret the frame rate 29.97, but it will no longer be 300fps, because six extra frames per second will be used to make up for the difference between 23.98 and 29.97

3000 frames = 12.5 seconds to playback in a 24/23.98 timeline

3000 frames = 10 seconds to playback in a 30/29.97 timeline

in any case if you export as a frame sequence, giving just the frames then let the importing application determine the speed at which to playback that sequence or interpret those clips.

It's probably not not a good idea to try to do frame rate conversion via QT export preset and you might not have ideal results , but you can try to create a DNXHD mfx preset in RCX at 29.97 and render a few test files.

Also so be careful if the 29.97 is an interlaced format rather than the progressive frame format that the REd captures.


Battistella

 

[Chris Bourke]

No. It's not a metadata tweak. It's just not that simple to alter TIMEBASE.

You can export an IMAGE sequence of .tiff, .jpeg or DPX. Then the avid can import the footage and interpret the frame rate 29.97, but it will no longer be 300fps, because six extra frames per second will be used to make up for the difference between 23.98 and 29.97

3000 frames = 12.5 seconds to playback in a 24/23.98 timeline

3000 frames = 10 seconds to playback in a 30/29.97 timeline

in any case if you export as a frame sequence, giving just the frames then let the importing application determine the speed at which to playback that sequence or interpret those clips.

It's probably not not a good idea to try to do frame rate conversion via QT export preset and you might not have ideal results , but you can try to create a DNXHD mfx preset in RCX at 29.97 and render a few test files.

Also so be careful if the 29.97 is an interlaced format rather than the progressive frame format that the REd captures.


Battistella

Thank you for the quick reply!

I just find it hard to believe that there's no simple solution to change the meta to tell the clip what rate to play back the fixed number of frames?

It's like bringing in a ProRes clip into cinema tools thats 29.97 and conforming to 23.98, it's just altering the clip's timebase. It's the same number of frames, just taking up less or more time depending on the FPS?

I completely understand your option of creating an image sequence and bringing that in to a 29.97 timeline, but at that rate, couldn't I just drag the 23.98fps R3D into a 29.97fps timeline in Premier?

Thank you again!
Chris

 

[David Battistella]

Sure,

You could do that premier thing and it should work out OK. Not sure it's the best way, but I would test it out first.

A few things are "baked in" an R3D file and TIMEBASE is one of them. That is why there are choices between, 23.98, 24, 29.97 and 59.94 all of these time and or sync the video differently and therefor need to be treated differently as you are essentially changing the sync mode of the sensor. It's just not a "Metadata thing".

I'm suggesting best quality scenario and quick and dirty. You can pick your poison.

David

 

[Steffen Vala]

David I hear what you are saying and I agree with it mostly from what we can do from the outside as Redusers with our recorded r3ds.

My understanding is that if the recorded frame rate is what the camera is set to capture, e.g. 300 fps (which cannot be altered after the fact), the only way it is linked to what the playback speed (i.e. time base or project frame rate) is actually data or metadata? As you explained, the number of still images themselves have been locked in at whatever the record frame rate was set to per second.

But, I would think it is in the Red's developers' hands to be able open an .r3d and code a line (which means metadata or just data) that says, while this shot was recorded at 300 frames per second of real time, it should be played back in our software (slower, faster, at real time) at 23.98 fps or whatever the change desired? I think Jeff Kilgroe has raised this point a few times. I'm just reiterating it in basic terms to try to understand better.

-Steffen

 

[Chris Bourke]

That's exactly what I'm getting at!

You can take a 5D clip shot in 60fps, drop it into cinema tools and hit one button (conform), and it immediately changes the timebase.
I find it very hard to believe that it's not possible with a RED file.

David I hear what you are saying and I agree with it mostly from what we can do from the outside as Redusers with our recorded r3ds.

My understanding is that if the recorded frame rate is what the camera is set to capture, e.g. 300 fps (which cannot be altered after the fact), the only way it is linked to what the playback speed (i.e. time base or project frame rate) is actually data or metadata? As you explained, the number of still images themselves have been locked in at whatever the record frame rate was set to per second.

But, I would think it is in the Red's developers' hands to be able open an .r3d and code a line (which means metadata or just data) that says, while this shot was recorded at 300 frames per second of real time, it should be played back in our software (slower, faster, at real time) at 23.98 fps or whatever the change desired? I think Jeff Kilgroe has raised this point a few times. I'm just reiterating it in basic terms to try to understand better.

-Steffen

 

[David Battistella]

You could export an image sequence, DPX, tiff, or even a Prores file and then conform the Prores file in cinema tools without any problems at all.

Just render out what you want and do the conform in cinema tools.

You can not do this with the r3d though.

battistella

 

[D Fuller]

That's exactly what I'm getting at!

You can take a 5D clip shot in 60fps, drop it into cinema tools and hit one button (conform), and it immediately changes the timebase.
I find it very hard to believe that it's not possible with a RED file.

You can do this with an .r3d file in After Effects for sure, but you can't get an r3D as your output, you'd have to go to DNxHD or ProRes or a DPX sequence or something of the sort. Just go to "Interpret footage" and set the frame fate to whatever you want, then put the clip in a sequence of the same frame rate and export to DNxHD (or whatever). You can do something similar in Premiere. If you grade the file in RCX and save the RMD before you go to AE or Premiere, it should look just like the RCX version.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

In premiere you make a 29.97 timeline and import the clip to the bin. Right click the footage in the bin and choose interpret footage. Enter 29.97.

 

[Jimmy Reynolds]

Any more joy with this? I shoot alot of music video but i like to shoot 50 fps and 50 fps timebase so that i can get audio for sync but still use part of the take in slowmo. but playback goes to hell with playback in red cine x. is there even a way to get 50% playback?

 

[Dylan McLaughlin]

Shouldn't this be a Redcine-X (or in camera) feature by now?

Seems a common workflow for those recording in-camera sound to change the project time-base to match high-framerate recording. I do it pretty often and just use Interpret Footage in Premiere Pro, but I imagine at some point soon this needs a proper workflow.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Avid can convert it too if you ama link convert transcode it... But best results I'd defer to above workflow as image seq. avid and Adobe can sort of get away with it but proper telecines and inverse telecines are more complex and require much more stringent workflows

 

[Brian Merlen]

Ps make sure they want progressive vs interlaced too and if it's interlaced red cine will not work and I already asked them to add interlaced options but no interest from red. Ps it records in camera only progressive not even PsF

 

[Grant Limberg]

In Build 38 Beta up on red.com (https://www.red.com/downloads/4f56854e6261f95a570006af), you now have the option to override the frame rate of a clip for playback when the clip is added to a bin/project, and for R3D Trim. Note that audio will be disabled for playback, and in the case of R3D Trim, will not be copied into the new R3D. If you need the audio tracks from the clip, you should export them to BWF/WAV prior to changing the frame rate. The workflow for changing frame rate for R3D trim will also be changing for the final release of Build 38.

 

[David Battistella]

Hi Grant,

There are two discussions TIMEBASE and Framerate and I think that people get these confused.

The reason you can "reinterpolate" a 5D clip and "create" slow-motion is because the clips are being captured at 60P. and so 60 frames are being captured in a 60 P timebase. They you tell premiere to interpret that footage as 24 so it plays back the 60 frames in a 24timebase and it looks like slow motion.

When you capture at a 23.98 TIMEBASE with a common specific shutter angle of 1/48th 180degrees, it just is not that simple to shoot 48, 60, 72 or 96FPS and come back to 24P and have it look "normal" because the shutter changes.

Are you suggesting that it won't matter anymore if someone selects 23.98 or 59.94 as their timebase?

 

[Grant Limberg]

David,

In the camera, there are two settings: Recording Frame Rate and Project Time Base. REDCINE-X plays back the clip at the rate specified by Project Time Base. Changing the playback frame rate in RCX overrides the Project Time Base setting.

 

[Miguel Gallagher]

Changing playback frame rate

Changing playback frame rate

David,

In the camera, there are two settings: Recording Frame Rate and Project Time Base. REDCINE-X plays back the clip at the rate specified by Project Time Base. Changing the playback frame rate in RCX overrides the Project Time Base setting.

Hi David,

That is great. Can you tell me how to change the playback frame rate in RCX or point me towards a tutorial. I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Thanks

Miguel