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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can we talk about other cameras here again?

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Bryce O

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I know this is a Red forum, and talk of other cameras has been discouraged, but I've been disappointed with the boards at DVXuser lately. It seems like any post or thread that brings up a negative/flaw of the AF-100 gets shut down. I've even seen a thread where someone did a test that pointed out the fact that the AF-100 still has aliasing in some situations and it was shut down in 25 mins. There is even a thread right now that clearly shows the 7D exhibiting higher DR and the mods come in, state that it was done under "incorrect" circumstances, and delete or ban those who challenge their declaration. I'm starting to get a real "conspiracy" feeling going on over there.

Is it alright to just compare 7D/GH2/AF-100 type cams? I'm in the market for a new cheaper cam while I'm waiting for Scarlet or the Epic-S to drop, but I just don't feel comfortable taking advice or listening to their "reviews" or "tests" that get posted over there anymore... It used to be just Red vs. 5D threads here and I can see why Red would get upset and annoyed with those arguments, but we've got so many other large format cameras/camcorders now that I don't see the harm in discussing those, as long as we leave the Red comparisons out of it. Which, honestly, should be anyways... as RAW shooting is in a whole other ballpark than these 8-bit pro-sumer or broadcast cameras.

If not, it's cool. Just a thought...
 
The policy around here seems to be that it's okay as long as it "relates to RED" in some way. What exactly that means is up to the mods and Jim.

Reasons for the new policy (or well, when it was new) had a lot to do with the many and various comparisons to DSLRs that were clearly inferior in resolution, DR and color fidelity but still people insisted on comparing the two (a 25K camera vs. 1-2K cameras? Really?) even after it had been a clear and loud "thanks but no thanks" posted all over those threads.
At one point it got so annoying REDUser declared an official policy to shut down all other camera sections and restrict those discussions to DVXUser. Makes a lot of sense, even if I wish sometimes we could get back some of that freedom again.

It's really not that much different from banning political or religious debate. Or porn. But is there someplace where we can read any official rules when it comes to other cameras? Because the policy still seems kinda sketchy at times...
 
Yea, defiantly agree. I was even here when the ban was implemented. I just figured that there are so many more cameras now that I don't see any harm...
 
Best keep discussion of other cameras that don't relate directly to RED to other forums.

Graeme
 
I for one learned many things about why Red was BETTER reading those posts.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
I for one learned many things about why Red was BETTER reading those posts.
Click to expand...

While this has been true on occasion, more often than not it invites more problems than productive discussion and clutters the already difficult to navigate posts.

This is a RED forum. It is not a general industry forum. There are other places to discuss all the latest DSLR and video offerings from other camera companies.

Not here.

Jim
 
Free and unstructured discussions regarding DSLR's as professional motion platforms required Red to take time away from serious development of Epic and Scarlet to provide clear imperical evidence of DSLR inadequacies as comparable professional solutions. To the uninitiated, these discussions create the false impression that the current crop of DSLR's are comparable to Red's product line. To anyone that viewed this evidence, it was very clear that Red was vastly superior in motion-image quality to such a degree that comparisons to currently available DSLR's was not only a waste of time, it was eroding the public's understanding of what Red's primary focus is. There is enough mis-information and mis-leading hearsay about Red in the market without clouding the issue further. One should use DSLR's to shoot weddings, basic cable reality shows and whatever else you're willing to spend production dollars shooting. Red cameras are for big budget studio tent pole productions and (thanks to Jim's innate generosity) everything else on down to YouTube kitten videos. The stills camera market will give you video, but you will pay for this feature with what some regard as unacceptable technical compromises. These worlds do not currently co-exist in the same space. In the future, they certainly will. But why should those of us interested in driving Ferraris, have to wade through technical dissertations on Ford Escorts? Would you compare a Hasselblad to a Holga? Honestly? Red pays for this bandwidth, it's their platform. I want the camera I've already paid for, and I don't want the company building it to have to re-iterate again and again and again how utterly different their camera is from everything else in the market. The difference should be self-evident- and if a Red and a DSLR is comparable in your eyes, then I'm afraid you will learn nothing here.
 
It's Reduser.

Lets just talk RED here.


I like coming here to discover things directly relating to RED and RED cameras. I have done all of my own personal comparative tests and that's up to me to talk about with friends.

What I talk about here is how i am consistently blown away I am by RED, their cameras and the talent assembled to discuss how to optimize the tool.

I think this site is a service to the users if RED with a lot if great, mature contributions. The community has evolved with the help if RED weeding out all of the senseless noise. I believe this is the right direction as this professional community grows.

David
 
There are other options than DSLRs.

I agree with this decission, allthough I don't particularily like it.

I agree because it invariably went out of hand...
I don't like it, because I think it shouldn't have gotten out of hand... :-))

I miss it due to the fact that there are many knowledgeable people here I have learned to know and respect. But that's what we have other fora for, like mail, facebook and other professional fora...
 
There are other cameras, yes. Is comparison important? Critically. But discussing the merits of these cameras is a sales and marketing function. Red has grown past this need. This forum should educate, optimize and inspire the end-user. The market has been penetrated, the word is out, to those that are just learning about Red, sample footage is easy to access. We're past the point of wondering wether or not an opposable thumb is an advantage- it's time to peel bananas.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
There are other cameras, yes. Is comparison important? Critically. But discussing the merits of these cameras is a sales and marketing function. Red has grown past this need. This forum should educate, optimize and inspire the end-user. The market has been penetrated, the word is out, to those that are just learning about Red, sample footage is easy to access. We're past the point of wondering wether or not an opposable thumb is an advantage- it's time to peel bananas.
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To me it was never about which is better and why but rather "Oh, did you see that feature" or "Isn't that an interesting way to approach sensor design" and "They seem to have done low light well"
 
Also,

What do you actually compare it to? There is no other motion camera that captures RAW motion images. To me, there are no any comparissons to be made until such time as a camera with this RAW Motion Capture (unique to RED) feature exists.

David
 
Let's not forget that RED will be attracting still image shooters too.
Comparisons become far more valid in that respect.

I think discussion of possible B cameras should be tolerated, unless it starts flaming.... but can see why this is not always the best place for such discussions.
 
David Battistella said:
Also,

What do you actually compare it to? There is no other motion camera that captures RAW motion images. To me, there are no any comparissons to be made until such time as a camera with this RAW Motion Capture (unique to RED) feature exists.

David
Click to expand...

Not quite accurate. The ARRI D21( and the d20 I think ) could do arriraw over T-link to approved recording devices ( s.two and codexs come to mind ).
But that's an UNCOMPRESSED raw format, which means everything that works with it is expensive OR sloooooowwwww (and we are talking 2K BTW). Herein lies the brillia of redcode which is RAW but mildly compressed, and for which red and Graeme have been granted a patent!
 
It looks to me like within this thread, we have begun talking about other cameras again. Perhaps this is some sort of wormhole?
 
Jannard said:
This is a RED forum. It is not a general industry forum. There are other places to discuss all the latest DSLR and video offerings from other camera companies.

Not here.

Jim
Click to expand...
Case closed, end of story. A successful Forum must be moderated according to some theme or guideline otherwise it gets ruined for everyone. There must be a forum somewhere to discuss the virtues of various cameras. Currently I want to find information on Go Pro HD, in fact I've found a lot already. I certainly would not want to see a thread about it on this forum, I come here to learn about RED and R3D. (And no, I am not attempting to squeeze thru some wormhole)
 
George Butterfield said:
Case closed, end of story. A successful Forum must be moderated according to some theme or guideline otherwise it gets ruined for everyone. There must be a forum somewhere to discuss the virtues of various cameras. Currently I want to find information on Go Pro HD, in fact I've found a lot already. I certainly would not want to see a thread about it on this forum, I come here to learn about RED and R3D.
Click to expand...

The thing is though... people form genuine, trusting friendships on these forums and may want to ask those friends about their opinion on, say, a large frame B cam to work with their Scarlet Fixed.

The whole point of this article was that the OP didn't trust the opinions he found on the forum he had been on and, I assume, would rather discuss them, civilly, with his RED chums.
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
To me it was never about which is better and why but rather "Oh, did you see that feature" or "Isn't that an interesting way to approach sensor design" and "They seem to have done low light well"
Click to expand...

The aspects you describe are fair game, in the right context. From my perspective, a problem arises when third parties push specious test regimens and bullsh*t "shoot-outs" for which they are compensated by competing interests to intentionally confuse and obfuscate the facts. Red should not pay for them to have a platform. I have been present- in the room- during one such kangaroo court conducted by a "friend" of Red, who turned out to be funded by another camera company-- a problem that seems to have happily gone away.

This is un-productive, and the real loser in the game is always the professional's credibility for taking the bait and the easy money. If you knew nothing about cameras, and came here for real information how would you determine the veracity of the information you were getting?

In 2011, if you still need to be "sold" on using Red or Epic, you either know nothing at all about cameras, you have a very comfortable and stress-free job in 1080 Post, or you are compensated to use something else. I'm not saying the Red cameras are the only solution-- there are many options-- but I am suspicious of those that discount the camera out-of-hand.
 
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