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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can we have focus assist on LCD and NOT on EVF?

:) :) :)
 
joelnet said:
Well - they're obviously not pros. ;-)

I just think some people aren't really wrapping their head around RED yet. I think it's going to be a fast camera to shoot with. :gun:
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Damn right. Versatility is key in this field, and there are many ways to accomplish a job from my experience.
 
:) = not pros

they're so many around the corner..
 
Well, at least until the 70's, I wouldn't be so sure.
 
Joelnet

I personally would trust a tape measure to marks over anything else. With a tape measure you know exact distances to set marks.

Alexander,

I started in ENG and they are talented profesionals that can pull their own focus but that is not what we are really talking about here. Last time I looked I did not see a focus pulling position with an ENG cameraman. The way I look at it a focus pullers main job is to keep things in focus. If the focus puller try's to do it off a monitor it will be poor at best. I am not sure why some of you argue so hard against this. I know a bunch of people on here are students or newer to the field. I am only trying to help when I say this. If as a shooter you are striving to be the best you can well what I mention is how the best in the game do things. It would be much easier for me to just sit back and say nothing but that would not help. This will be the last I ever post about focus pulling as I am tired of feeling like I am attacked when ever I try and help by mentioning it. Now I will back up what I am about to say with this, I have worked on Unforgiven, Legends Of The Fall, Jumanji, Shanghi Noon, Shanghi Nights, Xmen, Xmen 2 to name just a very few of the films I have worked on. Not on one film, TV series, commercial or music video that I have worked on does a focus puller use the monitor to judge focus, the monitor is just for positioning reference. I am going to go out of this topic with a bang and say this without pulling any punches.

PULLING FOCUS OFF A MONITOR IS NOTHING SHORT OF BUSH LEAGUE!! Any focus puller that wants to limit their potential and ability to be the best they can be well just keep pulling focus off a monitor.

Some of you may argue and say well you can pull off of a monitor and I guess you can. To put it in perspective though A carpenter can bang in nails with his steel toed boots but the right tool for the right job and the carp would look like a joke to other carpenters. If as a focus puller you want to appear like a joke keep pulling focus off the monitor.
 
I think it depends on the work you're doing. Deep DOF is a good way for 35 mm live shooting or when the focus is critical. A smart focus assist can be really valuable. And yes, 35 mm was used as newsreel format.
 
Okay... it's "interesting" to see a 'feature request' spin off into a discussion on what constitutes professionality.

I'd just like to be able to send different overlays to the EVF and LCD.

And I'm still going to double check critical focus on a large screen. Finner can tell me how unprofessional that is as much as he wants, but a lot of things can go wrong on a shoot, and the only way to know for sure whether the right part of the image is in focus is on a decent screen.

There's an anecdote on the extended edition of Lord of the Rings Return of the King, where it's mentioned that an entire day of footage came back from the lab out-of-focus - and it turned out it had been shot that way... They wouldn't have seen it on the video-tap. Basically they needed to reshoot. Not sure what went wrong, but if it happens there, it can happen to anyone.

Just last week I graded a video that was slightly soft, turned out there was something with the back focus of the lens, and even though the focus puller was great with his tape measure...

So even if the focus puller pulls (pun intended) a great job, there are other factors that would make it a good idea to double check every once in a while. I'm not saying the focus puller should be staring at the monitor all the time, but he should definitely double check regularly. And it would be nice to have the 'magical focus assist' available to him/her.

Sheesh...
 
Finner, that was my point exactly. ENG camera men DO pull focus off of a monitor (EVF/LCD same business as far as I'm concerned), not by pulling out the trusty tape measure. Yes, they typically use a 2/3" sized lens with a deeper dof, but they still need to pull focus visually on the fly.

I've never said that an AC should not mark up or measure in one form or another. An AC would definitely be out of his mind if he planned to pull blindly from an lcd at all times, it just wouldn't work without knowing the lens to an eerie level.

As far as the 35mm field goes, yes, I would argue that by using the focus assist feature a good AC can mark up using the digital focus assist, then hit those same focus marks just as well as if he/she were using the tape method.

Personally, I expect my AC to measure up but wouldn't be totally against the idea of an AC using the focus assist feature to create "digital marks" vs. tape measuring.

I can think of two definite advantages to using an lcd in combination with marking up in the traditional and or digital method. First off, you can check your marks visually and leave the dp's viewfinder free while you use the lcd. Also, the ac can check his marks on the fly during a shot by glancing over every now and then.

Sadly, on many indie films, even with a big or small budget, actors do tend to over or under step their marks. If an AC knows his lens well enough he can compensate in most cases, but not confirm that the pull is sharp instantaneously, where as with the lcd, they can do so.

New technologies bring new advantages in my opinion.
 
Fully agreed.
 
Finner

I appreciate your input a lot, and I hope you do continue to post on this topic as you obviously known what you are talking about.

Could you tell me why you don't use a monitor to check focus on a "Hollywood" production - is it because you don't trust monitors for accuracy, or because you need to concentrate full-time on framing?

I'm hoping to use Red for wildlife shoots, and this is something that concerns me a lot. While there will be some situations where it's possible to use tape to pre-focus on, say, a branch and wait for a bird to land on it, most shooting situations are completely uncontrolled.

The only focus reference I expect to have is the EVF.

While I anticipate shooting windowed 2k or 1080p a lot of the time (therefore increasing dof) I will still want to shoot 4k where possible.

Am I being unrealistic in expecting to use the EVF for focus at 4k?
 
Am I being unrealistic in expecting to use the EVF for focus at 4k?
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I think it's too early to answer this question. In theory, a 720p EVF can't properly display all the information required to check the focus on 4K (except with "focus assist" kind of tricks).

However, as Finner said, focus pulling for fiction doesn't really require a monitor at all. When I pull focus on 35mm, I use a tape measure, and use as many marks as necessary for the shot. However, unlike what Finner seems to think, I also double-check my focus many times (esp. on critical shots) on a high quality monitor connected to the video-tap. Don't get me wrong though: I always use marks first!

Like Finner said, for 35mm or super 35mm type of DOF, I think it is not possible to get proper focus without marks! So, if you plan to shoot in 4K without an experienced first AC, well, I think you'd better change your mind or face potential catastrophe :)
 
Moir said:
I'm hoping to use Red for wildlife shoots, and this is something that concerns me a lot.
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no no.. you didn't understand!

1st, you should warn the penguins.. after you use the tape measure.. you won't need the lcd for nothing.. actually you won't need to buy a lcd nor an evf either.. only a tape measure.. and you should be fine. :sorcerer:
 
Let the focus puller do the job so he can anticipate missed marks ect, he can't do that by looking at a monitor.
But no harm in having QA in the form of a 1:1 pixle display on set.

In respect to 4K for run and gun RED are introducng 35mm DoF characteristics to mass market for the first time since newsreels days and WWII.
Would be great to hear from anyone with experience shooting 35mm run and gun (for large screen display) without a focus puller.

A new set of skills, expectations and work arounds both technically and editorialy will be explored in the comming years.

Would the movie Borat for instance, have gone for 1080p with 22x lenses or 4k with 5x lenses? Great fun ahead!


Mike
 
Finner,
Again, thanks for trying here. Pity you were shouted down!

I haven’t had much professional production experience but appreciate what you’re saying.
Remember an old focus puller friend of mine, checking a set of hire lens before taking them out. I think amongst other things he was checking the actual length in focus vs. the marking on the barrel of them. Not sure.

I remember, sort of, what you were says regarding experienced focus pullers knowing their lenses and the range of focus per stop. I guess if actors missed their marks he/she could adjust accordingly by sight. Not sure.
I guess it would be a huge amount of work for the focus puller, if what I said (well you said) was all disregarded, or at least not ‘highly critical’ to the job and critical focus was done on the monitor.
It makes sense what you say for the operator to check focus as he’s framing the shot and he would get best use out of Red’s focus assist tool. I guess for Red productions that don’t have a dedicated focus puller, like mine!.......then the focus assist will offer some benefit.

Moving on,

Stuart,
I’d really like to know how you control the focus assist feature on RED?
I also like the idea of the 10ft lcd cable so extra eyes can use the focus assist.

I’m also interested when you says the output to the evf/lcd is a modified DVI output.
It makes me wonder if an adapter DVI cable could be made that plugs into a larger DVI monitor to show camera output with focus assist, look around, frame markers and other graphics. The other HDMI/HD-SDI outputs don’t show these features. I guess this would also be advantageous when controlling the camera via usb or wifi.

Regards,

DF
 
I think some of what I said was misunderstood by some. What I am saying is that you should not pull focus off of a monitor and any decent focus puller will tell you this. Now this does not mean after the subject hits the mark or misses it that you do not take a quick glance at your montitor to make sure things look sharp. It is actually a good idea to use a monitor for a quick reference like that. That is not pulling focus off of the monitor though. And a branch or natural in the frame mark point is excellent to use for a distance mark. In fact I would often mark my focus puck with little drawings like a post or tree or rock that was in frame and as the subject passed it I would know where I needed to be. I think a monitor is a great tool that is useful for reference but to be used for referencing focus when a subject has landed or to know exactly what the lens is on. To actually watch a monitor and try and pull focus from it and not set marks and know distances will not work. I have done camera car work on the back low cage system a few inches off the ground just behind the rear tires of a ford ranchero. The car was used for the matrix highway motorcycle scene and when you have bikes, cars ect travelling at 100mph plus and are on the back of a "camera car" like the ranchero you do not have time to be looking at any monitor. The ranchero spends most of its time in LA and has a 500+hp stock car engine with huge stock car tires and suspension.

So I guess I did a poor job in explaining camera monitors. They are a great tool that can help a focus puller a bunch. That said they are not useful to just watch throughout a scene and pull focus from. A monitor is best used by the focus puller for quick reference not as a tool to pull focus from.

It seens to me that some think I am crazy or have no idea what I am talking about. I have worked with a lot of the best focus pullers in the bussiness and all I am trying to explain is how it is done. Sure a camera op. can pull his own focus off the eyepeice but he will buzz a lot of difficult shots. So if the focus puller is going to try and pull focus off the monitor you might as well save the money they are being paid and just have the op pull his own focus.

The lord of the rings thing I would imagine would have to do with the pressure plate on the movement. A Op of that level would have caught the focus problem real quick so it must have been something behind the shutter that was the problem. An operator and focus puller have a close relationship and the op thrusts the focus puller to get things in focus but the focus puller trusts the op to let him know if he buzzed a shot so they can do it again if needed.

I hope I did a better job of explaining myself this time.
 
Thanks. That makes things a lot clearer for me.

I'm one of the bottom-feeders moving up from the prosumer world and this is all a big learning curve for me. I currently shoot with a Canon XL1 and SLR telephoto lenses, so I'm used to working with very shallow dof (using what is possibly the world's worst EVF).

What I don't have to do is follow focus moving talent while the camera is also moving - I can only imagine the difficulties.

I'm fairly confident that I can nail focus on static shots of more or less stationary birds, especially stopping down a bit, but it's never easy to track a moving bird, especially when it's flying towards the camera.

Since I shoot single-handed, I am focus-puller, DP and director, but at least I'm the only one who notices when I screw up.
 
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