Can we ENG at 480?

[Jay A. Kelley]

TJ,

I got all excited about the idea of RED supporting SD more than it currently does, but I think it's not gonna happen.

I hope they will consider it, but something tells me we are looking at a little too much work to make this happen. I would LOVE to be wrong, but some on the RED team do not see this camera working for a ENG setup and they are cool with that.

If you want my thought it would be this: We would need a COOL HD/SDI - IE1394 adaptor.. Then take that to a firestoreHD and you are good to go..

Or if we can do HDMI to firewire?

It's time to start thinking about a workaround

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Stuart,

There has always been a lot of support for the SD side of RED.. This you know. So let's knock it down to a very simple request so we can get a simple answer:

Dear Stuart,
Could you please add an option that would allow us to save files scaled down from either 4k or 2k to an SD format for NTSC /PAL and saved in some sort of codec like Quicktime or DVCpro50?

This would make RED a turn key crossover camera for all those who cannot afford the move to HD but do not want to purchase a camera that cannot grow when they are ready.

The points for selling such a request have been made numerous times by numerous people. We all have a vested interest in this feature, but also believe with all our hearts that it would be of major help to the sales of RED as well.

The camera alone will be a $30k or more investment (When you start talking about a good lens) and a lot of us will simply be unable to upgrade our post production side at the same time.

ok sir, there's the request.. What say you, or Jim for that matter?


Jay

 

[tj williams]

Jay you are a writer you take my long winded meanderings and reduce it to a simple request. You are wasting your talents in the camera world!
Since there is no answer here I suppose we must conclude that the answer is not yet ready.... See ya at NAB

 

[Greg Voevodsky]

Hi TJ.
I think we have presented the best business argument for including SD.

1. 80% of the world still uses it, and producers want it now - not tomorrow after a downconvert.

2. Most of Reds competition offers the both SD and HD. And for the film people, you have to go to a lab overnight and telecine - Im talking digital video for a quicker and more affordable workflow.

3. Cross over technology by definition will reach a wider audience and induce more sales.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay you are a writer you take my long winded meanderings and reduce it to a simple request. You are wasting your talents in the camera world!
Since there is no answer here I suppose we must conclude that the answer is not yet ready.... See ya at NAB

Thank you kind sir. I tend to agree, I think they feel they have gone as close to SD as they wish with the support of it in REDCine. And perhaps the speed of the software is so fast that we're not looking at that much of a time committment.

I do believe our request would have been a major selling point, nevertheless, I feel we were given a good hearing, and if our request fit their business model they most certainly would have done it.

I would have like a more direct response, but they have answered this request before.. Along the lines of "This is an HD camera, we're not going to support SD beyond what we already have"

Jay

 

[JohnF]

Jay I agree with your point:

I would have like a more direct response, but they have answered this request before.. Along the lines of "This is an HD camera, we're not going to support SD beyond what we already have"

Jay

I think the current support of REDCINE for SD is probably the best we can expect at the moment given the amazing effort the RED team have put in already.

Though I do hope that the REDCINE for SD process will be fast as I will be carrying a pretty fast laptop around for shooting and it would be nice to be able to simply and quickly just "spit out" an SD avi file (with matching TC???) at the end of a long day.

JohnF

 

[tj williams]

My suggested workflow reflects the fact that newscasts are all about speed and using existing infrastructures. So recording 480 resolutiuon in camera would still create a need to re-code to what your NLE is using as its base codec. Exporting footage from REDCINE in 480i NTSC would involve software based scaling and interlacing that can be done faster in dedicated hardware. The DV100 codec is a good choice for editing as it is in many newsrooms already.

So I believe that the fastest way to get RED ONE footage on air, is: shoot REDCODE 720p RGB, then use REDCINE to re-encode to 720p 4:2:2 with DV100 compression. Use Final Cut Pro (ar Avid eqivalent) do the editing using DV100 as its codec. An AJA or equivalant I/O card can do a real time scale / crop / interlace to NTSC / PAL and output via SDI. From there the stations's routing switcher send the baseband signal to their video servers (which could be almost any flavor of DV, M-JPEG or MPEG compression)
__________________
Workflow Wizard

Stuart has spoken on another thread wherein it seems that if RED put out 480I to the digital magazine, it would have to be transcoded in any case to an input format for the particular editing system. As I'm just a shooter and haven't edited for years I don't know the answer to this? I guess it's just not possible for the camera to real time scale 2K or 4K to 480I in an acceptable format for FC or Avid???? This seems really strange since RED can scale to 720 in real time???? CAn someone knowledgeable comment on this???

 

[Anders Holck]

The problem would be that to use the SD files directly in either a FCP or a AVID, RED would have to implement a compatible codec into the camera compression system.

So they would have to implement something like the DV 50 codec, just for the SD feature alone. So not only would they have to implement the 480 scale but also program a new codec.

If they don't you would still have to convert into a compatible format before you could edit with real time performance on your edit system.

Redcode RGB in SD could possibly work inside FCP, with realtime cut's but no realtime effects.

 

[RED-Tank]

This would make RED a turn key crossover camera for all those who cannot afford the move to HD but do not want to purchase a camera that cannot grow when they are ready.

Thank you Jay for putting this out, it is exactly why I die-hard for REDONE so much and until I read this thread, I wrongly thought that realtime SD is one of the REDONE option but obviously it isn't.

So they would have to implement something like the DV 50 codec, just for the SD feature alone. So not only would they have to implement the 480 scale but also program a new codec.

Anders, now I understand the complexity to support SD directly from REDONE.. it looks like I have to hope for a new REDLITE camera to be announced (hope rather then rumour) which supports SD up to HD 1080p, 120fps & more importantly, the nikon mount. In fact these are the main features I am after as I simply have no such market to do 4k yet (neither skill nor knowledge).

If SD was available directly in REDONE, it could kill everything from the old Sony PD150 up to probably any big camera you all know well.

 

[JohnF]

What is everyone fussing over SD codecs about? What's wrong with AVI's?

If one's NLE system cannot deal with a simple AVI file then it's rubbish.

Let me expand... If you shoot to tape (any format) the producer and editor have to upload/digitize the material to the NLE in real time, so a 63min tape takes 63min to upload. If your NLE cannot deal with/work using an avi file then one can convert it to whatever at faster than real time and have it running on the NLE before a tape (or tapes) would have uploaded.

RED will supply you with a camera that shoots a 4k picture and the software that can spit out a file at most resolutions so at the end of a day (if you have a laptop to do the conversion on) one can hand a hard drive to the producer with a simple AVI file that can be handled by almost all editing software on earth.

The most important issue is workflow. Can REDCINE output an SD file fast?

I think this might be the sticking point with producers esp the technologically inept, disorganized and in a hurry, basically rubbish producers (who I constantly wonder how so many of them find employment).

Uh-oh I better cut out I feel a rant coming on...

JohnF

 

[Rob Lohman]

AVI is not a codec. So it has nothing to do with SD. You are probably thinking about AVI + DV. Here the codec is DV.

REDCINE can output to whatever (reasonable) resolution you want, including SD. It doesn't export to AVI though. QuickTime codecs and still image sequences only at the moment.

 

[JohnF]

Sorry Rob I wasn't being clear.

By AVI file I meant uncompressed 720x576 (not AVI+DV) as it would be nice to output RED footage with minimal or no compression for SD clients to preserve what will no doubt be fantastic image quality. If we compress for SD at the early stage of coming out from camera (via REDCINE) then the chances that the production team might have to convert the footage to whatever their edit system of choice can handle then there is a chance that the image would be reduced further in quality.

Hard drive capacity is now in a situation where hours of uncompressed SD can easily be transported on a single drive.

That said I am stating my opinions (and so is everyone else I think) based on what pre-release information we have seen regarding RED and REDCINE. The options that have been presented are very exciting and I'm looking forward to working with them but they seem more orientated to film production and other "longer run in" productions. I think the concern on the SD EFP/ENG thread is that it could possibly be an issue for clients that we all at some time have to work with. Though I will be doing my upmost to persuade them of the benefits...

JohnF

 

[tj williams]

QuickTime codecs and still image sequences only at the moment.

by Rob:

So Will this be possible?

Since input from analog sources through Component inputs of both AJA and Black Magic cards are uncompressed quicktime files in 8 or 10 bit in 480I 3/4
will it therefore be possible to output a matching file in RED Cine to allow the editor to have NO RENDER at the end of editing, just as if the whole program was Betacam origination imported through the card in component.

My understanding is that both Final Cut and Premiere will support quick time files which are properly configured.. At this point Avid and Sony Vegas who use hardware and proprietary formats will still have to render this output. Perhaps you have suggestions about how RED can address them?

DV rendering is valuable for some clients but most of the broadcasters still use BetacamSp for other shooting, and have libraries of material in that format. Also the uncompressed nature of these files makes them distinctly better looking than DV. in broadcast. I have shot both formats and the Betacam Sp always looks better than the DV on TV.

Of course we are all concerned that the rendering from 2K or 4K will be as fast or faster than real time. If that is the case I can distribute the rendering engine with the footage and the client can render out to 480I in the same time it would take to ingest tapes.

 

[tj williams]

Hoping we have a "happy 480I" answer at NAB All the Best to the RED Team, see you there...