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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can someone help me compare?

S

sbcooler

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I've just started getting into more professional looking video. I've been shooting first with Sony's HC1 single chip HDV camcorder...then I moved up to the Sony Z1u 3 Chip HDV camcorder. I also use a Canon HV20 and Sony HC7 as B-roll.

I mostly shoot mulit cam rock concerts with about 500 people in a club. I usually use 3-6 cams to shoot it. It is so challenging, because the lights are strobing/flashing....the when I get light I have harsh red light, green light, etc...rock concert atmosphere.

I suppose 6 Sony F950 would do much better! But I don't want to drop 100K per cam!

I'm wondering how the RedOne and future Scarlet would shoot the same shows I shoot. What would the difference be like in the footage (assuming I adjusted the camera well and shot it well).

Would I get less "blown out" video? Would my blacks be deeper? Is the dynamic range a little greater or much greater with the Red and again Scarlet? How much better if you had to quantify it approximately? I'm ok with people guesses...just trying to get an approximate idea.

Currently I think I suffer from a poor codec for rapidly changing frames with all the lighting changes and the close up cams have lots of movement as the performers move around the stage and I'm panning to keep up...I shoot from the pit right by the stage usually...but my other cams shoot also close up and mid range and far shots. I will be using a steady cam as well but haven't quite done that yet either.

I'm real curious how the Red One (and Scarlet) would compare to my current cams and to Sony's newer EX-1 again for this kind of rock concert like setting in clubs...and once in awhile in a big arean with 10,000 people. Also curious to how the Red One and Scarlet would compare to Panasonics $48K model..called the HPX 3000 that shoots in the Intra Frame Codec called AVC Intra? Is the Sony F950 better or worse than the Pani HPX 3000 for this would you guess?

I would love to by 4 or 5 Scarlets and 1 Red One for my whole production as this is good economically, but I'm real interested in quality and upping it to the next level and then some! Even for the same price and same quality I'd go Red just to support a company I have learned a ton from just reading this forum

I hope Jannard doesn't get too upset nor too engrossed in some of the comments here...I love it all as I learn. Congrats Red on getting my attention big time and here's to high hopes for success. I read everything so one day I'll probably be a Red customer.

Thanks for any help...also if anyone directs me to any web sites I am an avid reader and don't mind that too. Just having trouble finding anything on the web comparing dynamic range and such of all these cams.
 
Hi there!

I rarely reply to any posts, but yours caught my attention!

IMHO, the Sony would be a waste of time for you: too expensive and too long a process of ingesting footage before you can start editing. The Panny would be an improvement over the Sony as far as ingesting your footage goes: P2 based media.

However, both of these cameras AFAIK have 2/3" sensors, roughly equivalent to that of 16mm film. The Scarlet is a 2/3" format camera and provides much higher resolution footage than either of these other cameras can produce. RED ONE has a 35mm sensor, so would be harder to keep the subject in focus in low lighting conditions as a result of having to keep the iris wide open, whereas Scarlet would be easier (and it has auto shooting modes).

Additionally, considering you intend to shoot six streams of video, from an ingest standpoint, the RED way would suit you far greater as it is tapeless so importing could be done in a snap. As the size of compact flash cards increases you would be able to store more and more footage on each before having to changeover cards.

In regards to dynamic range: if you were to plot a graph of dynamic range against cost, the winner would be RED. The cheap little cams (such as the HV20 etc.) are great to get started, but by the time they're rigged up with anything serious they are expensive and no longer viable in a pro environment as they have poor latitude. I currently own a Cinevate Brevis and HV20 rig, which I'm happy with in daylight, but in a night club it would fail miserably. Film of course would have the highest dynamic range (each frame is a new sensor effectively) and you can get different stock that is better in lower light conditions (faster stock), but inevitably costs a FORTUNE and takes ages to process and ingest: not viable in anything other than big features. The Sony and Panny are pretty good for latitude, but much more expensive than RED and not as great as far as latitude goes.

My inclination would be to wait for Scarlet to be released and buy as many as you can/need. They cost nothing in comparison to the big Sony and Panny, will produce images of higher resolution and higher quality, and the editing side of things will be far easier, especially if you're a fan of Apple!

Also of note, the new Scarlet cameras will have wifi control: I'm not sure exactly what you will be able to control, but in your environment this may prove to be invaluable if you're part of a small crew.

Regards,

Liam.
 
Interesting

Interesting

You say the Red has greater lattitude (is that the same as dynamic range) than the Sony and Pani...are you comparing it to Sony's new EX-1 and Pani's 48K HPX 3000? Sony's F900/950 I thought had greater dynamic range than the Red at least thru build 14 or 15?

I always heard the only thing Sony does that is a little better than RED for like 5 times the money is dynamic range...that is can get more detail in highlights and produce a wider dynamic range in any given frame. Is that not true in your understanding?

How many stops would a super feature rock show be able to do with film in the highest quality (no budget constraints) way?

How many stops is my Sony Z1u rated at? And is the RedOne in practical circumstance rated at about 8-9 stops so far?
 
There's no question that RED/ Scarlet are the cameras that deliver indisputable quality above the cameras mentioned.

There's one problem though. You want to shoot rock concerts with a lot of strobing and flashes unfortunately the RED (and therefor most probably Scarlet as well) can't handle it that well. Flashes and strobes tend to be cut in half, since they only get captured by half the frame. That doesn't look that good.

So I would take the RED for tests (maybe rent one for one of your shoots) just to see how you feel about it.

Don't forget that a lot of the material you've seen so far on this forum has been shot in 3K. Also the 2K material shows you the DoF you will get and it's not bad at all.


Kind regards,


Fredrik Callinggard
 
Ok

Ok

You say the RedOne would not handle Rock Concerts well that have lots of fast lighting effects like strobe lights? Is that because of the rolling shutter issue?

Would Sony's EX-1 be better for that?

I am afraid most CODECs will break with fast panning and the strobing different color lights?

Trying to figure out the best cams to get for this. I don't have control over the lighting show for these bigger events. I'm just there to capture it in as fine detail and color as possible.

I do edit also though. I was hoping RED would work because the codec seems to be strongest. I was only concerned with the dynamic range, low lighting situations and details in performers under strong colored spotlights and details in the black levels.

Do I really need a Sony 950 for this kind of work to get it near perfect? I HATE that option and am unwilling to do that I think.

I hoped RED or SCARLET in particular could handle this. Hmmm...rolling shutter issues. I wonder how bad it would look and how often it would happen during an intense light show?

Anyone have suggestions?
 
Scarlet should have less rolling shutter issues. EX1 should NOT be better than RED/Scarlet. HPX 3000 should be pretty much spot on (untill we know the final specs for Scarlet.

The price differnece between the two, is quite interesting, though :)

Gunleik
 
weirdcrew said:
There's no question that RED/ Scarlet are the cameras that deliver indisputable quality above the cameras mentioned.

Kind regards,


Fredrik Callinggard
Click to expand...

Hi Fredrik,

So you have used Scarlet! care to share any information you have,any handling issues?

Stephen
 
U2 3D was shot with Sony F950's

U2 3D was shot with Sony F950's

Gunleik,

Thanks for your response. WHen you say the Pani will be pretty much spot on are you saying it would be a great cam to capture this kind of footage? I know it cost more than 2x the Red though.

And why do you think the Scarlet will not have this rolling shutter issue with strobing lights?

I know the U2 3D concert was shot with Sony F950's and I did not see any distortion nor effects when lots of lights were flashing.

Scarlet is my ideal answer IF flashing lights don't create that rolling shutter issue much.
 
I bought a Sony EX-1 while waiting for my Red. It is many times better than the HDV you have been using. The XDCAM codec is very stable and good looking, and is taking over large segments of the ENG world. I still use this camera for run and gun, because its faster to use than Red. Of course the Red One is in a whole other league of resolution.

Scarlet would be even better for your market segment, if you are ready to endure the year long wait we have survived - don't know about the strobe thing. What you need for your application is dynamic range - rent / borrow and test them!
 
I was hoping I could get some people on here to save me the time and money and rent/buy these different cams and do rock shows and tell me what they think!

OH well. I'm trying-
 
The EX-1 is definitely a better camera than the others for low-light - but I'd test one out at a club - I've had some Autofocus issues with it - really slow to focus - and bands and nightclubs I could see that being a real problem.
 
Noone knows Scarlet as of today, but there have been stated by Jim and others, that the rolling shutter issue is considerably better with Scarlet/EPIC, than the ONE.

Whether it's a "real" issue or not for you, you'll have to test, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't live with the RED, if you found the EX1 unproblematic...
 
we use both systems and i suppose for your scenario i would choose hdcam. In fact, we do that often, concert shots (and some of our customers have over 400 concerts done) are hdcam-land for us.

pro hdcam:
Syncing strobes (which would be necessary with red) isnt necessary. The Sony triple 2.2 MP CCD-fits have no issues with anything in that aspect, while red *really* should be synced with the strobes.
The sensitivity of the sony 3ccd system is pretty independent of light temperature, while red prefers daylight.
Also, you want to record for a *long* time continued, which would require the red harddisk, which isnt recommendable for the bumpy / steady and vibrationintense situation you are in.
The dynamic range of the sony head is very good. We often shoot in clubs, concerts etc since many years, and the quality and reliability has been excellent.
The postproduction workflow, including 1080p uncompressed direct to harddisk and the realtime colorcorrection in the cameras are very valuable if you have to match several cameras and want to be *extremly* fast. red cant do that by design, neither 1080p realtime to disc, nor realtime in camera endresult colorcorrection.
750/900/950 all share the same optical block, so dont let you fool by sonys marketing - you certainly *dont* need to go with the more expensive cameras.

pro red:
On the other hand, there are *many* excellent reasons to favor red:
our hdcam setup costs well over 200.000, and i would know at least another 100.000 i *could* spend on it.
So, its comparing apples to oranges.
Also, while you can get pretty good PL and Photoglass for red, you need 2/3 top-quality lenses for HDCAM, so they are MUCH more expensive again. Also, there are many "creative" lenses, inexpensive, as the 8mm peleng which wont fit on hdcam but will do excellent on red.
Also, shooting 50/60 is the max what hdcam can do, and for concerts etc its awesome to have 25/50/75/100 on the red, or 120P for those special shots.
Having 35mm DOF is GREAT for many looks.
Also, you can post, slow, but however cheap, directly on a notebook at the concert - you cant do that easily with hdcam as you at least require a VTR and/or an aja io.

As bottomline i would suggest:
The more money you have, the less time you want to spend, the more i would lean to an hdcam solution. U2 or Hanna Montana (or the recent motorhead done by our friends at fxfactory) are hdcam for good reasons.

If creativity is a first, price/performance more important or you could only afford 2 hdcams vs. 8 reds, if you have the time to do a *outstanding* post and benefit of reds even more flexible raw-basing colorcorrection.

price performance and creativity favor the red, if the "showstoppers" of red (strobes, short recording times to cf and no live 1080p) can be solved in your production environment i would fully recommend red, if they cant, i would be conservative a go hdcam.
 
sbcooler said:
I'm wondering how the RedOne and future Scarlet would shoot the same shows I shoot. What would the difference be like in the footage (assuming I adjusted the camera well and shot it well).
Click to expand...
The pricepoint of scarlet is sensational.
I would buy it, even if it has to be for something completely different than the concerts due to the issues mentioned in the post above. 100MB/sek, 120-180P, 2/3 sensor, integrated optics, compact size, red brand - its a no brainer.
 
Laguun,

Thanks...very interesting response. I wonder if Sony will come out with an HDCAM or upgrade to flash drives or the like? Any idea...I like the idea of HDCAM but a better codec..that has the full 1,920 x 1,080...a little more clarity..but Sony's optics are great so color wise and everything I see what you mean.

The price on Sony's kills me though..and the current workflow with tapes is just too outdated for me. THat's why I was interested in the EX-1...or EX-3, but I am afraid of both the rolling shutter issue and the weaker xdcam codec due mainly because this footage is so fast changing.

I wonder if I bought 8 Scarlets and delt with the rolling shutter issues (edit around problem frames here and there) if that would be the ideal solution for me...I like 2/3" sensor for this kind of work and the focus is easier to keep up with I think.

I really would pay triple for Scarlet with 2 32GB cards...that would be about 1 hour of footage...and I can deal with changing that out once in the midst of a concert..but every 8 minutes is not so good.

Be interested to hear from RED if they think 32GB and 64GB cards are possible and it's just a longer wait for the technology to catch up. I'd like to start buying early 2009 and be finished and shooting by early 2010 with my new setup.

Hmmmm....
 
laguun,

Your reply is making me think of a lot of possibilities. Some people at a Sony store said they could sell the older F900 for like $35K...a whole lot less than the $110K for the F950. Still it's tape based. Not thrilled about that.

One more question for you. How do you think the newer Panasonic HPX-3000 with the full 1,920 x 1,080 DVCPRO Intra Codec would compare to Sony's HDCAM solution for rock shows? That camera new is $48K. It has higher resolution than HDCAM and a more advanced newer codec AVC INTRA.

Not sure of the dynamic range and optics and shutter mechanisms. Just curious how Sony's High End would compare to Panni's high end HPX-3000.

Thx-
 
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