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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can Red supply a list of good 4k displays?

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Wayne Morellini

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Jim said a while ago that Red had been buying in and testing all sorts of 4k displays. We have 4k displays from $699 to a few hundred thousand now.

Could I ask if Red would like to list which displays they found good for post production work with basic stats like the actual refresh rate (for 3d/motion) how good the picture levels, accuracy and potential/color balance and gamut is for low end (videography businesses/documentaries), intermediate and expert cinema, and ports/frame rate support? That would cover the crux of everything.


Thanks guys.
 
RED isn't really allowed to post that kind of information. It could get them sued if they say something deemed unfavourable, especially since many aren't out yet. More to the point, I don't think they are testing the displays in the manner which you think they are as they seem to simply be testing basic functionality and they haven't really tested any final products. A lot of post-production places aren't even using 4K displays yet though professional-grade ones - like the 84-inch JVC display - just became available, so sniff around the Internet next year and keep an eye on these forums for feedback on specific displays from people who are actually using them.
 
That's actually not true. They can talk about any product for which they are not legally bound by non-disclosure or other gag order. Now, that doesn't mean they won't get sued or make waves in the industry if they say "xxxxxxx display sucks". But if they were to come out and say, "The SEIKI is a great deal, but it can't properly display 24fps", there's nothing wrong with that. For starters, it would be a true statement.

Out of professional courtesy and seeing how they're not in the business of hardware reviews, they probably won't say anything. RED has already pointed out a few in passing that have compatibility issues. But once again that can be a touchy subject because those issues can often be solved with some creative applications of other tech or a simple firmware update and it may not apply in a few weeks. Once again, the SEIKI is a great example here. It has problems actually displaying most 4K sources without putting a real boost on the incoming signal. So connecting a REDRAY player to the SEIKI panels directly doesn't work worth a crap, the signal drops out every few seconds. But if you run it through a good booster, repeater, or HDBASE-T extender with an elevated output, it runs fine. And that is how most of us lucky few with REDRAY players are running it to the SEIKI displays.
 
cool!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
That's actually not true. They can talk about any product for which they are not legally bound by non-disclosure or other gag order. Now, that doesn't mean they won't get sued or make waves in the industry if they say "xxxxxxx display sucks". But if they were to come out and say, "The SEIKI is a great deal, but it can't properly display 24fps", there's nothing wrong with that. For starters, it would be a true statement.
Click to expand...
I wonder if they might come out with a little sticker that says "approved by Red" for different kinds of hardware. I don't think anybody would have a problem with that, especially if there was a certification process where the display or monitor had to meet certain minimum specs. When you get down to it, if the 4K display can reproduce P3 and Rec709, and it's got the right connectors and the right resolution, I'm not sure how much further you need to go (after price and reliability are factored in).

I'm sure there are in-house 4K monitors that Red use every day for evaluation. We've seen the Sony 4K SRX projector at Red Studios, which looks fantastic in a dark room... and it should for $200,000. The question is, how much cheaper can you spend and still get results that are close to this level of performance?
 
Marc Wielage said:
I wonder if they might come out with a little sticker that says "approved by Red" for different kinds of hardware. I don't think anybody would have a problem with that, especially if there was a certification process where the display or monitor had to meet certain minimum specs. When you get down to it, if the 4K display can reproduce P3 and Rec709, and it's got the right connectors and the right resolution, I'm not sure how much further you need to go (after price and reliability are factored in).
Click to expand...

They could. Just as various PC or RAID vendors certify and recommend certain makes and models of hard drives, RAM, etc.. OTOH, most of the current compatibility and growing pain issues are non-issues. HDMI is the interface of choice and assuming everyone keeps within the specification, it should all play nice. I picked on the SEIKI above because it does have a glaring issue that truly affects what many of us here do. Any of us needing true 24fps viewing at 4K are going to be wasting our time with the SEIKI 4K displays. Or at least the two models that are available right now. Beyond that, most of the info we'd need is already covered quite well from other sources. AVSforum.com is a great resource and has comprehensive reviews from both enthusiasts and installers that will give insight into displays, their quirks, ability to calibrate, image quality or any issues.


I'm sure there are in-house 4K monitors that Red use every day for evaluation. We've seen the Sony 4K SRX projector at Red Studios, which looks fantastic in a dark room... and it should for $200,000. The question is, how much cheaper can you spend and still get results that are close to this level of performance?
Click to expand...

Well, the list of available displays is pretty short at the moment. Depending on what part of the world everyone is in, there will be different considerations. However, the big boys seem to remain the same. Right now, there are only 3 4K displays out there that I would recommend. -- Sony, Sharp, Samsung --

There are indeed some much higher priced offerings from pro monitor companies like TVLogic, ASTRO, EIZO and others. So far, the only one of those offerings I've seen and liked has been the 36" EIZO 4K. Although, it feels pretty dated now and still carries a > $20K price tag.

If you want to get close to the 4K SRX projector quality in an LCD display, then you pretty much are locked into the 84" Sony or 85" Samsung panels. You're going to be spending $20K there. Many of us were hoping that prices would drop, but the high end seems to remain fixed for now because of no competition. Moving down the line, the new Sharp THX 70" 4K is excellent. Then we have what amounts to a tie in my book between the Sony and Samsung 65" and 55" 4K monitors. I think I would lean ever so slightly to Sony in terms of the image quality, but I'm confident my 55" Samsung is now tweaked to be just as good as the 55" Sony I sent back. I have had my hands and eyes on all of these displays I just mentioned, as well as the 50" SEIKI. The 84/85" Sony/Samsung are the only two with full-array backlight and there is a huge advantage there. The 70" Sharp would probably be better than those two if they combined their pixel tech with a FABL system, alas it is only edge-lit, as are all the other panels mentioned here.

I returned a 55" Sony after a few compatibility issues (known issues), which are supposedly being fixed with the HDMI 2.0 update (free to all customers). The Samsung I have now has not given me any compatibility issues, but needs a bit more tweaking to the picture out of the box to be right. It's a nicer looking display in terms of the physical design and doesn't suffer from elephantiasis ears. The big speakers on the Sony panels so indeed sound better than what the other display makers are giving us. However, even with that, they still sound like weak and tinny flat speakers with that harshly sharp Sony sound. Personally I think it still sucks and I much prefer a cleaner and trimmer display that I can pair with speakers of my liking. Not to mention the 65" Sony 4K is wider than both the 70" Sharp and 75" Samsung (1080P). Samsung has a 75" 4K coming sometime in Q1 '14.

The Samsung 4K displays have a few other quirks as well. The separate interface box is a blast from the past, circa 1999, but unlike the old Fujitsu and JVC units that really pushed this concept, the "OneConnect" box Samsung has is actually not dockable in any way to the rear of the display -- I'm using screw-down zip-ties to hold it to the wall behind the display, which is on an articulating wall mount. Several "WTF" design choices here from Samsung... Although this box could turn out to be an advantage if they offer an HDMI 2.0 upgrade and potentially other upgrades down the line. But as of right now, I'm starting to wish I had kept the sony, dumbo ears and all. If only for the free HDMI 2.0 update and the little bit better build quality, arguably slightly better picture quality.
Samsung was nearly $1K cheaper though after both a Samsung launch promotion, and Amazon Prime promotion.
 
About the Seiki SE50UY04, the V500DK1-LS1 panel (that's also in the TCL 50") has a max sink bandwith of 79Mhz, so with 4 lanes, we reach 316Mhz that might be a tad short to achieve deep color such as 2160p24 30bpp with a 5.97 Gbps payload, despite HDMI 1.4 supporting 340MHz. There is a whole thread http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1040106143 on Hard Forum about modifying the sink & tcon to increase frame rate, yet I would rather stay at 24Hz and increase color depth to RGB101010.
Maybe I got something wrong in my calculations/TMDS clock & ratios ?
 
10bpc @ 3840x2160, for any frame rate, isn't an officially supported mode within HDMI 1.4, so you will have to use modifications on both ends to accomplish it. The real issue I have with the SEIKI displays, and presumably every other display using the same 50" and 39" panels, is the hard-locking to 30Hz refresh when operating at full resolution. You can feed it 24fps material, but the system has to pull up/ interpolate to 30fps and it introduces judder. There's another discussion on this around here. No word from the guys at SEIKI yet if this is fixable via future firmware updates, or if it's a "feature" of the hardware and something we'll have to live with. :/

It properly displays 24fps judder free at 1080p and below, it's a UHD/4K thing on the SEIKIs.
 
Yes, as Jeff said.

I accommodated for avoiding bad reviews in my original post. Just "these are worth it, here are the stats" (so people can select what helps them). Red should be able to review. I am not against if they went so far to recommend something but tell you you need to turn sharpness to x and color calibrated, or tell you the color calibration is "close" or close if you calibrated. Just simple factual things. And I'm not against them listing a list of model names only of displays they had looked at even if some dude not get recommended.

Now there is one thing, there are stacks of 4k displays out there for a while. Red sells to the world, so it matters about the many cheap models overseas available to their customers there. If brands want to chose supply to America, that is there responsibility.

I realise there are a lot of downers on professional forums, but I would prefer if people made themselves feel good by trying to be right, understanding and being good, building towards better, otherwise we are going look like blackmagic user.

Could I ask if Red would like to list which displays they found good for post production work with basic stats like the actual refresh rate (for 3d/motion) how good the picture levels, accuracy and potential/color balance and gamut is for low end (videography businesses/documentaries), intermediate and expert cinema, and ports/frame rate support? That would cover the crux of everything.
Click to expand...
 
Hello, Jeff -
Thanks for your reply. I initially tested with a Dell 9020 USFF with a 4th Gen Core and 2 display ports using the famous Accell adapter, and I believe it was sending 3840x2160p @29Hz @32bpp that indeed resulted in the Seiki to refresh at 30Hz. I waited for an NUC with HDMI & DP that arrived today to reply to you. I initially connected via HDMI (using the Seiki blue cable) and Windows 7 rebooted to adjust resolution, yet I got the infamous "Not support", so then I used the Accell DP to HDMI adapter and was getting like with the Dell.
I did not try to configure other custom resolutions yet, and like to have advice about the timing standard, as to whether CVT, GTF, CVT-RB or CEA would be more adapted.
Meanwhile here https://app.sugarsync.com/wf/D6484595_647_6879484748 is a picture showing the current display settings, and also below I pasted the EDID 1.3 info that I retrieved. I called Seiki numerous times about improving the EDID (rather than using the Phoenix EDID designer & MCCS utility that did not work well for me, requiring to do a factory reset). They think of it as just a TV.
Also about the 30Hz pull up, do sections 6.1.3 and 6.1.4 of the Chimei Innolux timing specs for 24Hz & 30Hz hint any capability to get the refresh down to 24Hz, if Seiki were so inclined to upgrade firmware ?

Below is my current EDID configuration :
Time: 6:58:39 PM
Date: Friday, September 27, 2013
EDID Manager Version: 1.0.0.14
___________________________________________________________________


Block 0 (EDID Base Block), Bytes 0 - 127, 128 BYTES OF EDID CODE:


0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
000 | 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4C AB
010 | 00 00 01 00 00 00 09 17 01 03
020 | 81 6E 3E 78 8A A5 8E A6 54 4A
030 | 9C 26 12 45 46 AD CE 00 81 40
040 | 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
050 | 01 01 01 01 04 74 00 30 F2 70
060 | 5A 80 B0 58 8A 00 BA 89 21 00
070 | 00 1E 9A 29 A0 D0 51 84 22 30
080 | 50 98 36 00 B9 88 21 00 00 1C
090 | 00 00 00 FD 00 32 4B 18 3C 0B
100 | 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00
110 | 00 FC 00 53 45 35 30 55 59 30
120 | 34 0A 20 20 20 20 01 74


(8-9) ID Manufacture Name : SEK
(10-11) ID Product Code : 0000
(12-15) ID Serial Number : N/A
(16) Week of Manufacture : 9
(17) Year of Manufacture : 2013


(18) EDID Version Number : 1
(19) EDID Revision Number: 3


(20) Video Input Definition : Digital
DFP 1.x Compatible


(21) Maximum Horizontal Image Size: 110 cm
(22) Maximum Vertical Image Size : 62 cm
(23) Display Gamma : 2.20
(24) Power Management and Supported Feature(s):
Standby, RGB Color, Non-sRGB, Preferred Timing Mode


(25-34) Color Characteristics
Red Chromaticity : Rx = 0.650 Ry = 0.330
Green Chromaticity : Gx = 0.290 Gy = 0.610
Blue Chromaticity : Bx = 0.150 By = 0.070
Default White Point: Wx = 0.269 Wy = 0.275


(35) Established Timings I


720 x 400 @ 70Hz (IBM, VGA)
640 x 480 @ 60Hz (IBM, VGA)
640 x 480 @ 72Hz (VESA)
640 x 480 @ 75Hz (VESA)
800 x 600 @ 60Hz (VESA)


(36) Established Timings II


800 x 600 @ 72Hz (VESA)
800 x 600 @ 75Hz (VESA)
1024 x 768 @ 60Hz (VESA)
1024 x 768 @ 70Hz(VESA)
1024 x 768 @ 75Hz (VESA)


(37) Manufacturer's Timings (Not Used)


(38-53) Standard Timings


1280x960 @ 60 Hz (4:3 Aspect Ratio)


(54-71) Detailed Descriptor #1: Preferred Detailed Timing (3840x2160 @ 30Hz)


Pixel Clock : 297 MHz
Horizontal Image Size : 698 mm
Vertical Image Size : 393 mm
Refresh Mode : Non-interlaced
Normal Display, No Stereo


Horizontal:
Active Time : 3840 Pixels
Blanking Time : 560 Pixels
Sync Offset : 176 Pixels
Sync Pulse Width: 88 Pixels
Border : 0 Pixels
Frequency : 67 kHz


Vertical:
Active Time : 2160 Lines
Blanking Time : 90 Lines
Sync Offset : 8 Lines
Sync Pulse Width: 10 Lines
Border : 0 Lines


Digital Separate, Horizontal Polarity (+), Vertical Polarity (+)


Modeline: "3840x2160" 297.000 3840 4016 4104 4400 2160 2168 2178 2250 +hsync +vsync


(72-89) Detailed Descriptor #2: Detailed Timing (1440x900 @ 60Hz)


Pixel Clock : 106.5 MHz
Horizontal Image Size : 697 mm
Vertical Image Size : 392 mm
Refresh Mode : Non-interlaced
Normal Display, No Stereo


Horizontal:
Active Time : 1440 Pixels
Blanking Time : 464 Pixels
Sync Offset : 80 Pixels
Sync Pulse Width: 152 Pixels
Border : 0 Pixels
Frequency : 55 kHz


Vertical:
Active Time : 900 Lines
Blanking Time : 34 Lines
Sync Offset : 3 Lines
Sync Pulse Width: 6 Lines
Border : 0 Lines


Digital Separate, Horizontal Polarity (-), Vertical Polarity (+)


Modeline: "1440x900" 106.500 1440 1520 1672 1904 900 903 909 934 -hsync +vsync


(90-107) Detailed Descriptor #3: Monitor Range Limits


Horizontal Scan Range: 24kHz-60kHz
Vertical Scan Range : 50Hz-75Hz
Supported Pixel Clock: 110 MHz
Secondary GTF : Not Supported


(108-125) Detailed Descriptor #4: Monitor Name


Monitor Name: SE50UY04


(126-127) Extension Flag and Checksum


Extension Block(s) : 1
Checksum Value : 116


___________________________________________________________________


System Information Summary:


Processor : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770S CPU @ 3.10GHz
Operating System : Microsoft Windows 7 Professional
OS Version : 6.1.7600
Service Pack : 0.0


Video Controler:


Device ID : VideoController1
Name : Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600
Adapter Compatibility: Intel Corporation
Video Processor : Intel(R) HD Graphics Family
Video RAM : 2.25 GB (2,415,919,104 Bytes)
Availability : Running or Full Power
Driver Version : 9.18.10.3107
PNP Device ID : PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_0412&SUBSYS_04121849&REV_06\3&11583659&0&10
Resolution : 3840x2160
Max Refresh Rate : 75 Hz
Min Refresh Rate : 23 Hz
Current Refresh Rate : 29 Hz
Current Scan Mode : None-Interlaced
Status : OK




___________________________________________________________________
 
FYI I went to testufo.com and ajdusted my 2160p frame rate in Windows 7 x64 to all available frame rates. If you like me to do any other test, I'd be happy to.
Windows refresh / testufo frame rate / testufo refresh
23Hz 24fps 24Hz
24Hz 24fps 24Hz
25Hz 25fps 25Hz
29Hz 30fps 30Hz
30Hz 30fps 30Hz
Using Chrome version 29, i7-4770-s processor with Iris 4600 Graphics, Intel driver 9.18.10.3257 of 7/29/13, ASROCK Z87E-ITX motherboard , DP port output , Accell B086B-003B-2 DP to HDMI adapter, Seiki blue HDMI cable to HDMI2, Seiki SE50UY04 from May 2013 with latest firmware updates.
 
Christopher Quarksnow said:
FYI I went to testufo.com and ajdusted my 2160p frame rate in Windows 7 x64 to all available frame rates. If you like me to do any other test, I'd be happy to.
Windows refresh / testufo frame rate / testufo refresh
23Hz 24fps 24Hz
24Hz 24fps 24Hz
25Hz 25fps 25Hz
29Hz 30fps 30Hz
30Hz 30fps 30Hz
Using Chrome version 29, i7-4770-s processor with Iris 4600 Graphics, Intel driver 9.18.10.3257 of 7/29/13, ASROCK Z87E-ITX motherboard , DP port output , Accell B086B-003B-2 DP to HDMI adapter, Seiki blue HDMI cable to HDMI2, Seiki SE50UY04 from May 2013 with latest firmware updates.
Click to expand...
The differences at www.testufo.com are normal because TestUFO rounds-off refresh rates. Refresh rates are almost never exact to the integer. Sometimes 23Hz may actually be more like 23.5Hz, and that might round-off to 24Hz, as an example. For a more accurate reading of your refresh rate, view a utility such as PowerStrip which can often read the refresh rate of your graphics card in 0.001 Hz increments.

That said, TestUFO is good for motion tests. How are the other motion tests at the testufo.com benchmarking site? -- There are about a dozen selectable test at the upper-right corner. I presume it looks fluid, as long as you're not running background apps.

That said, you can test a display's ability to display a proper framerate (e.g. 24fps@24Hz) by using TestUFO's Frame Skipping test at www.testufo.com/frameskipping - just follow the instructions at the top of the screen.
 
Has anyone tried the ASUS PQ321Q yet? Interested to see if this could be a nice client monitor for my resolve setup.
 
Eric Ulbrich said:
Has anyone tried the ASUS PQ321Q yet? Interested to see if this could be a nice client monitor for my resolve setup.
Click to expand...

It's a re-badged SHARP PN-K321. And literally, they just changed the logo badge on the front of the screen bezel and the on-screen logo in the menu. It's just OK, as is the SHARP. I owned the SHARP briefly, but returned it since I couldn't stomach the price tag in relation to all its flaws. Terrible light-leaks on the bottom of the display, poor color rendition, laggy interface, split-screen / dual-display to achieve 4K @60Hz. If it were under $1K, I'd probably re-buy... But with HDMI 2.0 arriving in displays as early as March or April, I'll just wait a bit longer and see what the next round brings. To get 60Hz, you have to feed it via DisplayPort 1.2 where it sees the screen as dual 1920x2160 displays and then you link them in your video driver panel to tell the system to treat them as one display.

Dell has announced their own monitor that uses this same panel, but with an improved backlight system and some other features like more onboard adjustment tools and color calibration settings. Don't know when they will start shipping. Once HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort 1.3 arrive, we'll start seeing some more serious options.
 
Last edited:
As always Jeff your insight is incredible and helpful. Thank you.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It's a re-badged SHARP PN-K321. And literally, they just changed the logo badge on the front of the screen bezel and the on-screen logo in the menu. It's just OK, as is the SHARP. I owned the SHARP briefly, but returned it since I couldn't stomach the price tag in relation to all its flaws. Terrible light-leaks on the bottom of the display, poor color rendition, laggy interface, split-screen / dual-display to achieve 4K @60Hz. If it were under $1K, I'd probably re-buy... But with HDMI 2.0 arriving in displays as early as March or April, I'll just wait a bit longer and see what the next round brings. To get 60Hz, you have to feed it via DisplayPort 1.2 where it sees the screen as dual 1920x2160 displays and then you link them in your video driver panel to tell the system to treat them as one display.

Dell has announced their own monitor that uses this same panel, but with an improved backlight system and some other features like more onboard adjustment tools and color calibration settings. Don't know when they will start shipping. Once HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort 1.3 arrive, we'll start seeing some more serious options.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff, I suspected it might not be as good as certain tech sites were saying.

What do you think of the newer Sharp model they are running Mac os in touch mode?

I'm actually here to find out how good the seiki 39 inch, we have a local distributor now. I actually remembered my fancy cheap bluray player is a seiki, I get to use it so seldom these days I forgot. I'm wondering where ever to buy it as a cheap stand in if the Red laser projector announcement is not coming soon. Mitsubishi has shown off a 4k laservue LCD, but not in production yet. I don't know how they have expect to get 200% gamut laser color with one red laser and blue and green leds, I could maybe, I came up with a design to do it years ago, so I could drop the laser from my projector designs optical path.

Anybody know how good the 39 inch and other seikis are?
 
If you feed the Seiki a compliant signal and calibrate it, the image is quite nice. All that resolution adds dimensionality and clarity.

It is not a reference monitor. The internal processing/electronics limit use cases. Build quality is decent, but no where near pro level.

IMO you get a lot for your money, just be realistic about what it can do in a professional setting.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
If you feed the Seiki a compliant signal and calibrate it, the image is quite nice. All that resolution adds dimensionality and clarity.

It is not a reference monitor. The internal processing/electronics limit use cases. Build quality is decent, but no where near pro level.

IMO you get a lot for your money, just be realistic about what it can do in a professional setting.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Thanks Blair. Are you referring to the 39 or 50 inch?

I'm not planning much, still on leave. Mainly YouTube (I can use my smudged glasses for that), local commercials, weddings and bottom end productions (hey there's a good business name, especial for comedy productions) if I can manage it. What do you think Blair?
 
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