Can Red make a "simple" 2/3" Fixed Scarlet?

[Oliver Moereels]

How can you possibly know this?

Any realistic Scarlet follower must now accept that we are at least 6 months away from launch and the 2nd generation DSLRs and large sensor cameras are on the way.

It is obvious that the Scarlet is (on paper) better than any 1st generation DSLR....... with the exception of the sensor size and low light.... but to think that competition is not on the way is naive.

Your second generation dslr is not going to do 3k raw @ 120fps.
If you can't grasp the difference between that and the 35 Mbps h264 your 5D gets you, you're on the wrong forum. Sorry.

 

[Jim Retar]

Your second generation dslr is not going to do 3k raw @ 120fps.
If you can't grasp the difference between that and the 35 Mbps h264 your 5D gets you, you're on the wrong forum. Sorry.

I just hate this attitude. I'm not anti-RED or pro DSLR (or any camera system, for that matter).

I desperately want a Scarlet s35 and fixed.... I know full well how good they will be.

But I am not naive enough to think that another company could not possibly make something just as attractive. Even Jim himself said that sooner or later they will make 4k, raw DSLRs.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

How can you possibly know this?

Any realistic Scarlet follower must now accept that we are at least 6 months away from launch and the 2nd generation DSLRs and large sensor cameras are on the way.

It is obvious that the Scarlet is (on paper) better than any 1st generation DSLR....... with the exception of the sensor size and low light.... but to think that competition is not on the way is naive.

I am no chip designer but I think logic is enough to tell you that the sensors that are in the 5Ds and 7Ds, etc, will never be able to close the gap and do everything the Scarlet is designed to do.

(Side note: Let's not argue any more about the fact that Scarlet "doesn't exist" - the fact that the Epic is shooting and there is a Scarlet mock-up is enough evidence. It's only a matter of time. We can't know what Canon is up to as they aren't the sharing types.)

Could Canon come up with a Scarlet killer? Theoretically, yes. But it would require a whole new chip design and fabrication - just like Jim is already well down the path to finishing with the Epic/Scarlet. It would require a new body design and fabrication to house electronics and dissipate heat (etc), which Jim and RED have already done. It would require new processing, management and operating software/firmware - which, as we can see, is very complex and won't be done overnight. And, if they want to do it right, they have to develop a RAW processing format. If they decide to do it, it will take time, great effort, and a lot of money. And it surely won't be priced the way 5Ds and 7Ds are. Maybe they are doing it - the recently announced Canon video cameras (XF 300/XF 305) are a step in the right direction but they are north of $6.5K - and not here yet - and they fall way short of Scarlet's capabilities. Maybe next time around?

To those who say that Canon has already killed the Scarlet... well, I just let out one of those Snidely Whiplash guffaws. These cameras may be a temporary substitute for Scarlet but they are not a replacement. Don't get me wrong, I am a long time Canon fan and I am likely to buy a 7D soon, to fool around with video but mostly to keep it as a still camera. I am not going fool myself into thinking that I'll like the video capability so much that I won't want a Scarlet. And for all those jobs people keep talking about that are being lost to the vDSLRs - let's see how long it takes before Scarlet kicks their butts and wins them back. (Maybe I should wait so I can buy my used 7D at a bargain price.) As far a the RED One losing to the vDSLRs, I think it is part fad and part ignorance. I wouldn't want to build my professional reputation on either. And the RED One is a bigger, heavier, camera than Epic and Scarlet and more expensive than Scarlet.

There really should not even be a debate about Scarlet and the vDSLRs at this point. It's like debating a Mazda Miata with a Ferrari. They are both very cool, sexy cars and are great fun. But they aren't of the same quality and can't do all the same things. If you want to have fun with your Miata until your Ferrari arrives (rumor has it they can take a long time to deliver!) that's great but don't fool yourself into thinking it's the same car. Of course, if it is "good enough" and meets all your needs and desires, then save yourself the wait and the money. It's as simple as that. But if you show up at the weekend rally and argue with the Ferrari owners about how much better your car is than theirs, don't be surprised if they smile and look a little smug.

 

[Jay Gannon]

But I am not naive enough to think that another company could not possibly make something just as attractive. Even Jim himself said that sooner or later they will make 4k, raw DSLRs.

No no he hasn't thats essentially a tech impossibility due to the amount of processing needed to do that.
He said that other manufacturers wil bring out 4k cameras, Aaton, Panasonic, Canon, Arri. Not 4k DSLR's.
Seriously go read up on information on the amount of processing power it takes, you cannot fit that inside a DSLR body, not even RED can do that. Scarlet/Epic are much thicker than a DSLR. Its not a matter of turning on a switch.
Its like people who say Canon is going to turn on 2k RAW with firmware, its not how it works, its not like adding a new lower frame-rate, or better audio processing. There are massive technological chasms to jump across before you can do that. Canon has never produced a RAW video camera nor a video camera over 1080p, so there is no existing tech that they can leverage from an R&D department, so their starting from scratch. This adds R&D cost to margins that Canon already have on their stills products (Remember Canon makes a tiny tiny fraction of its DSLR revenue from people who are buying it as a video camera not a stills camera).

I guarantee you that if Canon brought out a 5dMarkVideo with 2k and say 120fps it would be well well into the 6,000-10,000 dollar region, if not more.

 

[Jim Retar]

bored of arguing this... as I don't really even care. I like RED and hope Scarlet s35 is out within the next year or so. Cash is in the bank and I doubt anything will match it IF it comes out within a year. I think, in it's price range, it will not be trumped by anything.

BUT.... Canon have had 18 months since they fell ass backwards into a film/video revolution.... if you think they have just sat around those 18 months thinking they can get away with "good enough", then so be it.

My personal view is that they will have taken onboard ALOT of input from pro DPs that tested them and will come out with something nice.

It may not compete in every department with Scarlet.

There will likely be compromises when we look at the $6k and below budget...... for instance:

FF Raw 1080/60p from Canon
2/3" Raw 3k/120p from RED

Why can't we just say that if that scenario happens... it is great for us cinematographers.... i'd buy both.

 

[Jim Retar]

No no he hasn't thats essentially a tech impossibility due to the amount of processing needed to do that.

Direct quote from Jim
"I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera."

yea, yea... no mention of RAW... but that would not be the tough part of such a system.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Yes, a nonline skipping camera, not DSLR.
And yes RAW is a major part of such a system.

 

[Scott Crawley]

:crazy:

And so fellow travellers, we once again find ourselves at an impasse... Somwhere between reality and imagination.

"Look kids, Big Ben... Paliment!" - Clark Griswold

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Canon has been reaching out to cinematographers to figure out what this next step in the DSLR video movement will be -- I don't see their problems as being exclusively technical, but the real issue is price... because all the things that are missing currently in a 5D to allow it to be fully functional as a digital cinema camera (more processing power to allow full sensor recording without line-skipping, better read-out time to minimize skew, better internal cooling, decent 720P or 1080P monitor output that does not disable the camera's LCD, RAW recording, minimal compression, etc.) can only add to the price of the camera while adding features that still photographers don't particularly need. So their market shrinks as it becomes more focused on filmmakers while the cost of manufacturing goes up.

So will a 35mm digital cinema camera from Canon that ended up costing $10,000+, let's say, take some of the wind out of the excitement?

Because what's needed to turn a Canon into a Red One or Scarlet is more than a simple firmware upgrade.

 

[David Rasberry]

Direct quote from Jim
"I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera."

yea, yea... no mention of RAW... but that would not be the tough part of such a system.

Actually raw is the tough part if you want to record it at motion frame rates. Even at 1080p/2k the data rates and pipelines needed to move it to some sort of storage format, compressed or uncompressed, increases dramatically. More processing power, more heat, more power consumption. DSLR's already have overheating problems with video under some conditions. The size and form factor are just not amenable to practical motion camera requirements and to modify them too much would compromise their general utility as still cameras, so there is something of an impasse there.
Might Canon build a large sensor camcorder? For sure, but it will be pro camcorder form factor, size, and weight and at least 3 times the price for something that still only shoots HD. There is no free lunch to be had with this. 1080p raw to some compressed data format that will fit on common solid state recording media is another technical hurdle. Why would they do this at all since the vast bulk of their customers have no use for it?
Silcon Imaging has been able to record uncompressed raw off some of their 2k cameras for motion capture and special FX , but the processing is external to the camera and the recorder is the size of a two drawer file cabinet. This is the arena where Red is truly unique, having developed both the hardware and software for practical visually lossless raw motion recording in a compact practical field production camera.

 

[Leo Sardello]

So, to recap this thread:

After wondering if a lower spec'd camera from RED would be a worthwhile business move, speculation on this board now extends beyond what RED is doing to what RED’s potential competitors may or may not be developing behind closed doors. To what they may or may not be capable of delivering at some unknown time. With a lot of the sky is falling sandwiched in-between. :toetap05:

For my 2c on the OP, given what RED wants and is trying to do I can’t really see the point in a lower spec'd camera. If that is a market (the one in-between vDSLR and Scarlet) that is even needed after Scarlet is released, they can let someone else grab it as RED is pretty clearly not interested in it. After reading their 1080 isn’t good enough philosophy, it seems clear that RED isn’t putting their name on any product that boasts anything less than 3k. I think we should be happy about that, and continue to be patient.
:cheers2:

 

[Robert Rogoz]

I'll bet you your EX-1 you buy this camera when it comes out. :thumbsup:

On the contrary I can send you my address, so you can send me a new EX1, when you lose the bet. At the moment it looks like Scarlet is not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

On the contrary I can send you my address, so you can send me a new EX1, when you lose the bet. At the moment it looks like Scarlet is not going to happen any time soon.

Define soon.

And I'll bet when Tim sends you your new EX-1 you'd just secretly sell it on eBay and run out and buy a Scarlet - and take a vacation with the money left over!! :laugh:

 

[Vladimir Cassel]

Somebody send me an EX1 too while they seem to be flying all over the place in here! I'd like any camera at this point. I neeeed to film something! :cryin:

 

[Jim Klatt]

If you are primarily interested in a stills camera and video is a secondary consideration, 2/3" Scarlet won't be your first choice.
If you are obsessed with 35mm shallow dof at the expense of every other aspect of image quality and practical functionality as a motion picture camera then Scarlet won't be your first choice.
If your most basic camera package budget is under $6k, then Scarlet is realistically out of your price range.
If you need/want a camera now, obviously you will have to buy something else.
If 1080p HD video that resolves less than 540 TV lines vertical is "good enough" then a DSLR is all you need.

On the other hand Scarlet 2/3" will be well worth the wait if:

You want a truly flexible practical motion picture camera without serious functional compromises.
You appreciate the big differences in image quality and grading flexibility that a raw format camera shooting motion at 2-1/2 times HD resolution can offer.
You want the best possible 2k digital cinema format finish available from a sub $30k camera. Scarlet will downscale to fully resolved 1:85 and 2.35 cinemascope 2k cinema formats with a finished resolution in excess of 1150 lines vertical, beyond the resolution of 2k cinema projectors.
You want the potential to finish in higher than HD resolutions for specialty applications like digital signage for multi-display high resolution video walls used for advertising and event staging.
You want the flexibility to shoot and ramp between ultra slow frame rates in the time lapse range to high frame rate slow motion.
You need to shoot continuously for long periods of time.
You need/want a superb quality EVF that makes focusing accuratelyby eye in difficult circumstances easy and simultaneous onset monitoring to external displays.
You need professional video camera features like genlock, SMPTE timecode, high quality audio recording in camera.
You want fully programmable step and repeat robotic camera control including all lens functions for stop motion, animation, motion capture effects work.
You appreciate the 2/3"/16mm image size format for its general utility and all around flexibility. It is the most popular professional motion production format in the world.
You appreciate the ability to use fast broad range compact zoom lenses for fast action run and gun documentary situations.
You want to pack a compact light weight extremely robust camera and lens system into remote areas for nature shooting where the long lenses required for 35mm would be larger than and outweigh the complete package for 2/3".

I hope Scarlet comes out someday and is everything you want, David. I, personally, am over it and am very happy with the 5d. When something else is needed we rent.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Canon has been reaching out to cinematographers to figure out what this next step in the DSLR video movement will be -- I don't see their problems as being exclusively technical, but the real issue is price... because all the things that are missing currently in a 5D to allow it to be fully functional as a digital cinema camera (more processing power to allow full sensor recording without line-skipping, better read-out time to minimize skew, better internal cooling, decent 720P or 1080P monitor output that does not disable the camera's LCD, RAW recording, minimal compression, etc.) can only add to the price of the camera while adding features that still photographers don't particularly need. So their market shrinks as it becomes more focused on filmmakers while the cost of manufacturing goes up.

So will a 35mm digital cinema camera from Canon that ended up costing $10,000+, let's say, take some of the wind out of the excitement?

Because what's needed to turn a Canon into a Red One or Scarlet is more than a simple firmware upgrade.

David: as always your points are well taken.

However they may not need to turn it into a 3 or 4 or 5K RED - maybe just a 2 or 2.5K dSLR "Alexa".

One of the problems with the current VdSLRs is that they are scaling down from 24 or 18 MP.

But they could easily backtrack to say a 12 MP motion oriented sensor (and keep the still guys reasonably happy with larger pixels and greater DR and sensitivity) and with their next generation DIGIC V ASIC - which is already due on their normal development cycle (the video on the 5D was kind of a last minute throw in and probably wasn't anticipated in the DIGIV IV design).

Then they may have the horsepower to provide full motion "Alexa-like" scaling to a high quality, lesser compressed format like Prores or cineform at say 2 or 2.5K (even 3K is only 4.6MP). Remember the 7D is already doing TRUE RAW 18MP (more than twice Reds compressed raw 8 MP) at 8 frames per second with the 3 year old Digic IV which wasn't really designed for video at all. And maybe not much more costly than a 5D or 7D - possibly with an expansion port - like one of the larger battery grips - with additional functionality to suit the more professional applications.

While my personal preference was and is for the higher resolution of the RED1 and upcoming Epic, I also believe that the key to R1's success was price, S35 DOF, and higher quality codec - and RED probably would have sold as many if it was only 2 or 3K. And most of the market is still okay with those resolutions.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Sure, but that's basically designing a digital cinema camera from the ground up... ideally, you'd have something similar to the Red One sensor in a Canon video camera: let's say a recorded 3840 x 2160 RAW image (for a simple conversion / downsample to 1080P) in a slightly larger APS-C sensor for lookaround in the viewfinder (that area could be recorded as well for still shooters and whoever didn't need or want lookaround).

But does Canon even have a sensor with those specs? And if you only had this 9MP sensor in a camera, would the stills world be interested in it or would it be exclusively a video camera?

Or maybe stick to a FF35 sensor for stills that is around 18MP or so... but only allow a 3840 x 2160 area of the sensor to be used for video? Then you'd have a defacto Super-35 sensor size for motion but a FF35 sensor for stills.

But all of this still requires not resorting to line-skipping to get down to 2MP for HD.

Sure, these cameras get up to 8 fps in RAW mode but it's not a simple thing to increase that to 24 fps or higher for prolong periods without getting into heat issues, etc.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Sure, these cameras get up to 8 fps in RAW mode but it's not a simple thing to increase that to 24 fps or higher for prolong periods without getting into heat issues, etc.

And they don't even really write 8fps. It gets stored in the RAM buffer and then written out to the card at a much slower rate. After a couple dozen shots you have to stop and let the buffer at least partially clear before you can go on shooting.

Using the very fastest cards, my D2x takes about 4 seconds to save a RAW image. That's a 5 year old camera and I'm sure it's far far better on modern ones, but still....not closing in on 24fps or even 8fps.

Yet on the still photography sites like nikonrumors and dpreview there are people in all the rumor threads thinking Nikon or Canon could enable full frame raw video at 30fps (or higher) with a firmware update.

Actually now that I think about it they probably could enable full frame raw video (speed might depend on read-reset speeds of the sensor designs) with a firmware update. 99% of memory cards would probably drop frames (I already have trouble with slower cards just doing 1080p on a 5D II) and the cameras would MELT after 3 minutes, but they could do it.

 

[David Rasberry]

For my 2c on the OP, given what RED wants and is trying to do I can’t really see the point in a lower spec'd camera. If that is a market (the one in-between vDSLR and Scarlet) that is even needed after Scarlet is released, they can let someone else grab it as RED is pretty clearly not interested in it. After reading their 1080 isn’t good enough philosophy, it seems clear that RED isn’t putting their name on any product that boasts anything less than 3k. I think we should be happy about that, and continue to be patient.
:cheers2:

It is precisely shooting raw at significantly higher than HD resolutions that fascinates me. That and sensitivity and dynamic range that is well beyond what most moderate cost video cameras can do if not the DSLR's.
Just seeing the improvements in image quality grading some older build 16 to build 20 .r3d sample clips in the ever evolving redcine-X program has been a literal eye opener. There is easily a 1-1/2 stop improvement in usable sensitivity and DR on these old clips from the new software alone.
Please don't dumb down Scarlet just to meet a price point or get it to market faster. Just make it right.

 

[Robert Rogoz]

Define soon.

And I'll bet when Tim sends you your new EX-1 you'd just secretly sell it on eBay and run out and buy a Scarlet - and take a vacation with the money left over!! :laugh:

Let's define soon- that would be by Labor Day. I might go even further- with manufacturing in question, besides some cameras already produced, I don't think we are going to see any units o the selling block this year at all. So for this November ski shoot I am actually placing an order for another EX1 next week plus 3 Nanoflash units. Anyway, after long wait for elusive Scarlet my partners and myself- we simply gave up.
Also since we have some super16 lenses we might look into getting a new Ikonoscop camera at later date. However I want to see some actual footage and see how the post production would work for our set-up.
I know it is difficult to develop a whole new camera, but I am disappointed in the hype crated and a complete lack of delivery. I think companies have to be careful how much hype they create, as this is completely backfiring on RED.