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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can Red make a "simple" 2/3" Fixed Scarlet?

Lawrence Bansbach said:
Probably because it was priced so low to begin with, the fixed Scarlet 3K has been the most price-sensitive model in the line, having risen in price some 58% since it was first announced. Given recent announcements, I think it unlikely that the price will remain unchanged.

Yeah, but it would begin to approach the S35 in price.
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Uh... if the 2/3" Scarlet prices rises, doesn't it follow pretty logically that the S35 would as well? Even so, both cameras would, most likely, remain well ahead of their competition.
 
Nick D said:
I am wondering why doesn't Red just back down the Scarlet fixed specs, and produce a Kick-*ss 2/3" camera with "normal capabilities" like maximum 1080 60p for under 5K? I'd buy it...

Being several years after the original announcements, I would rather have a great simple working 2/3" camera rather than what Scarlet has evolved into as a perpetual "off-the-charts capability" prototype...

Best wishes to Jim & Co. for a successful Epic launch asap, either way...
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I hope they won't do that and instead bring out their kicka** 3k RAW Scarlet under 5k in 2010 ............ :reddevil:
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Uh... if the 2/3" Scarlet prices rises, doesn't it follow pretty logically that the S35 would as well?
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Probably. My point is, the S35 used to cost $4K -- or 133% -- more than the fixed. That gap has narrowed considerably. Cost increases seem to have hit 3K Scarlet the hardest, relatively speaking. And given Jim Jannard's repeated prognostications regarding resolution -- e.g., "I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make" (here) and "A quarterback throws where the receiver will be, not where he is. The industry will be behind if they are thinking 4K is the right place to be" (here) -- unless the delay is relatively brief and the 3K price increases (if any) are modest, it may become increasingly difficult to justify investment in 3K Scarlet vs. a more future-proof Scarlet S35. (Sorry for the impossibly long sentence.) Yes, now Red seems to have the price advantage on paper. But if the delay is serious, the DSLR manufacturers may catch up. Red is open. The others are not -- I don't know what they plan to release over the next year.
 
There have been no updates on the pricing for S35 Scarlet, but I would assume since the same improvements in features will apply we can expect the same approximate increase in overall price. Based on the increase announced for the Scarlet Cinema brain alone, forget the package price since that has more to do with accessories that will cost the same for either model, this increase at the moment is only $250.00
 
This thread was doomed from the moment it was posted.

All I am looking for is a camera that can be a Digital Cinema Camera without compromises in the image. I wish to put away my Indie tool box of Digital workarounds that create the illusion of a cinematic image. I want it to BE cinematic. I want to shoot incredible quality at Indie prices. What RED have proposed is ambrosia for my creative self.

Wish i could stay and debate but I got films to shoot and script to write.

Peace.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Probably. My point is, the S35 used to cost $4K -- or 133% -- more than the fixed. That gap has narrowed considerably. Cost increases seem to have hit 3K Scarlet the hardest, relatively speaking. And given Jim Jannard's repeated prognostications regarding resolution -- e.g., "I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make" (here) and "A quarterback throws where the receiver will be, not where he is. The industry will be behind if they are thinking 4K is the right place to be" (here) -- unless the delay is relatively brief and the 3K price increases (if any) are modest, it may become increasingly difficult to justify investment in 3K Scarlet vs. a more future-proof Scarlet S35. (Sorry for the impossibly long sentence.) Yes, now Red seems to have the price advantage on paper. But if the delay is serious, the DSLR manufacturers may catch up. Red is open. The others are not -- I don't know what they plan to release over the next year.
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DSLR cameras are limited because of a lack of processing & recording power and mechanical limitations like heat dissipation -- solving those problems to create something truly competitive with Red would also naturally increase the cost of the cameras.
 
Hi,

There is a pretty good chance that the price of fixed Scarlet will fall to it's original sub $3k price by the time it gets released, it's already 2 years behind schedule. Nikon / Canon now have DSLR's to compete with it. Red is no longer the only game in town.

Stephen

Lawrence Bansbach said:
Probably. My point is, the S35 used to cost $4K -- or 133% -- more than the fixed. That gap has narrowed considerably. Cost increases seem to have hit 3K Scarlet the hardest, relatively speaking. And given Jim Jannard's repeated prognostications regarding resolution -- e.g., "I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make" (here) and "A quarterback throws where the receiver will be, not where he is. The industry will be behind if they are thinking 4K is the right place to be" (here) -- unless the delay is relatively brief and the 3K price increases (if any) are modest, it may become increasingly difficult to justify investment in 3K Scarlet vs. a more future-proof Scarlet S35. (Sorry for the impossibly long sentence.) Yes, now Red seems to have the price advantage on paper. But if the delay is serious, the DSLR manufacturers may catch up. Red is open. The others are not -- I don't know what they plan to release over the next year.
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Hi Stephen. I'm not sure that anything Nikon and Canon do, will affect the manufacturing cost of the Scarlet. Pricing for the Scarlet will be driven mostly by the cost to manufacture. Nikon and Canon will not affect that.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
DSLR cameras are limited because of a lack of processing & recording power and mechanical limitations like heat dissipation -- solving those problems to create something truly competitive with Red would also naturally increase the cost of the cameras.
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Maybe. But then hasn't the history of digital technology been one of increasing capability at decreasing cost? New materials, design breakthroughs, etc., might do it. Does Red have a head start? Probably. But who knows what Canon, Panasonic, et al. have developed? Most certainly they have been slower than Red to market digital cinema cameras, but that's Red's raison d'être, not theirs. Unlike Red, they will likely mark up the price of their digital-cinema vDSLRs to whatever they think the market will bear.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

There is a pretty good chance that the price of fixed Scarlet will fall to it's original sub $3k price by the time it gets released, it's already 2 years behind schedule. Nikon / Canon now have DSLR's to compete with it. Red is no longer the only game in town.

Stephen
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Kind of like the price of Ferraris fell when they introduced the Mazda Miata. I remember it well. :biggrin5:
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Maybe. But then hasn't the history of digital technology been one of increasing capability at decreasing cost? New materials, design breakthroughs, etc., might do it. Does Red have a head start? Probably. But who knows what Canon, Panasonic, et al. have developed? Most certainly they have been slower than Red to market digital cinema cameras, but that's Red's raison d'être, not theirs. Unlike Red, they will likely mark up the price of their digital-cinema vDSLRs to whatever they think the market will bear.
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A mirror reflex DSLR does not and will not make a practical general purpose motion production camera for a whole slew of reasons and Canon et al are just as constrained by the limitations of physics, currently available technologies, and cost as Red is.
It has been 3 years since RED 1 hit the market and no one has stepped up yet. No low cost high resolution raw motion production cameras on the horizon, just variations on compressed and encoded HD video.
 
This thread is pointless and just adds to the noise. if you are talking about the 3k for 3k scarlet being part of your price increase, well that was an entirely different camera hence very different price. After jims good enough thread I would assume you guys would have gotten the point about making a 1080 only camera, hell he didn't even want to add the option to record in it in the new camera's (but he did 720 and 1080).

I would love canon or nikon to bring out some competitive raw camera but I'm sorry I just don't have faith in them, and until their is a finite announcement I will believe it when I see it. Plus I would love to see what their price point willl be after they beef up the processor sensor, heat sink or whatever. Honestly I know it sounds crazy to some of you but I have much more faith in delivering a true (or as true as you can get) raw aqusition digital camera than the still manufactureers at an affordable price point and with the features I require.
as I have said before though the more camera's the merrier so prove me wrong canon and Nikon, make me that crash cam b camera of my dreams.... no line skipping.

Back to work for me, and for you, you can buy two camera's a year or the money just sits there????????????? buy a bloody camera any camera there are plenty out there, some great specialty one's, it never hurts to have more or newer camera's especially when you have a fund for them every year. I don't know the full extent of your financial situation so I could be wrong but if it is the case spend that cash if you will have it back for the next announced delivery date (of which none so far have been set in stone only estimates no matter what is said always read Jims sig "subject to change...")

Speculation is fun but a redesign at this point in the game is just a waste of time, as I think has been said who knows there may be a mini cam on the next round of red camera's but as of know they have their hands full with the projects they already started.

shoot for the moon, because if you miss at least you'll end up amongst the stars.

have a good one.
 
Aaron Newsome said:
Hi Stephen. I'm not sure that anything Nikon and Canon do, will affect the manufacturing cost of the Scarlet. Pricing for the Scarlet will be driven mostly by the cost to manufacture. Nikon and Canon will not affect that.
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Hi,

The cost of manufacturing has very little impact on street price. A R1 probably costs under $5k to manufacture, it's the R&D costs to get the product ready to ship that costs the money.

Stephen
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Probably. My point is, the S35 used to cost $4K -- or 133% -- more than the fixed.

...
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Maybe I missed something but the last price I saw for an S35 Scarlet (brain only) was $7K.
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Yup, $7K is $4K (133%) more than the fixed's original $3,000 price. The last price quoted for the fixed was $4,750 for the kit (no brain-only price mentioned). The gap has closed considerably. And if both increased in price the same amount (and I don't know whether that's true or even if there will be a price increase at all), the $2,250 gap would amount to an even small difference percentagewise.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Yup, $7K is $4K (133%) more than the fixed's original $3,000 price. The last price quoted for the fixed was $4,750 for the kit (no brain-only price mentioned). The gap has closed considerably. And if both increased in price the same amount (and I don't know whether that's true or even if there will be a price increase at all), the $2,250 gap would amount to an even small difference percentagewise.
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Except you would need to add about $3000+ worth of goodies to make the S35 operational at the same minimal level as the fixed package.
Side CF module $500
Redmote $550
Battery module, battery and charger $1250
2.8" LCD. $900

The good news is Jim said they would offer package discounts on all models. Prices TBD.
 
David Rasberry said:
A mirror reflex DSLR does not and will not make a practical general purpose motion production camera for a whole slew of reasons
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And yet, despite these limitations, people are successfully using it as such, regardless of what people here think of the footage produced by vDSLRs. Besides Canon is listening to DPs. We'll see what they come up with.

Canon et al are just as constrained by the limitations of physics, currently available technologies, and cost as Red is.
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Sure they're constrained by physics. But that's not the same as saying they won't solve the problems. I don't know what they have in their research labs, so I can't say they don't have a 6K global-shutter chip that can run at high frame rates and is on the cusp of being manufacturable at commodity prices.

It has been 3 years since RED 1 hit the market and no one has stepped up yet. No low cost high resolution raw motion production cameras on the horizon, just variations on compressed and encoded HD video.
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Well, that's true, Red was the first and everyone else has to play catch-up. But with the success of these HD cameras, there's been little incentive to change. That's doesn't mean they aren't developing anything.
 
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