Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Can Red Change the Internet?

AnthonyFlores

AnthonyFlores

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Hollywood, CA
Hi Guys,

There's a lot of hype about the internet destroying the TV/film industry --
which we all know is BS.

At the same time, I wanted to get some opinions about the future of
Red footage ... in terms of it being displayed on the internet.

Obviously, one of the biggest limitations is bandwidth/internet speeds.

Most people don't have connections that can quickly stream a true HD
video or movie (even in compressed form) ... much less a 4k or 5k
video/film.

(The average US internet speed is only 5mbps, which is merely "okay."
Though many other countries are higher.)

Yet things seem to be changing. There are more fiber optic lines being
added and higher speed services popping up. At the building I used to live
in (Hollywood), I could get 20mbps, both upload and download. And I know
Verizon FiOS offers up to 50mbps.

So my question/comment is ...

- As these higher speeds become much more common, it seems as
though Red shot videos and films will be displayed much more in their
full glory. (And hopefully many more people will have Scarlets!) ...

... Yet I'd like to know at what speed will someone really need to play a
3k, 4k or 5k shot video or movie -- without it being excessively
compressed? 50mbps? 100mbps? Any idea?

Also does anyone think Red could/should develop its own player/plugin
to better handle and optimize Red shot videos and films?

Forgive me, I'm still new and don't know that much about compression
or working with Red files.

However, what I do know is that for most of the small/indie filmmakers
who have (or will be) adopting Red cameras -- especially in the coming
year -- the potential internet audience for their films is far bigger than
the theater or DVD audience.

So it's really a crucial subject.

Also, here's an interesting statistic: Cisco has predicted that internet
traffic will quadruple by 2014 -- and 91% of all internet traffic will be
video driven! Remember that traffic is how Google and many online
giants make their money.

At the same time the internet currently is FILLED with shabby looking
videos and I think more people are demanding higher quality in the online
videos they watch.

Sure, some people will be satisfied with "ghetto" webcam and flipcam
videos. But as the saturation of video continues, quality will become
more important ... even to casual users.

So I'm really hoping that in conjunction with better internet speeds
(which Red can't really control) ... and perhaps better web optimization
of files and maybe even a dedicated player/plugin -- maybe Red can help
to create a new standard for online video quality beyond what we see
now.

I really hope that happens.

I'd love to hear what anyone else thinks.

Anthony
 
Great post with some valid concern. I've been closely watching the rest of the machine as far as net neutrality is concerned. I think the more blurred the lines become between cable,tv's,computers,internet become, the more we need to watch the "powers" that be. I love how Jim's thrown a wrench in the machine and really redefined Moore and his "law". I'm still confused with the Google/Verizon chatter but we shall see. Hopefully when the illusion of time ends on Dec 21st 2012 ;) we will see fiber optic 5+k flowin for all of the new world.
 
Not sure. I don't think it's Red specific, but there is definitely a movement to increase bandwidth. The reasons mostly stem from video gaming, such as Microsoft's Xbox Live service, which also allows you to stream 1080p videos from Netflix, along with a host of other things.

I think as a whole the internet and TV are blending into one unique content delivery service. ISP's and broadcaster recognize this and know that unless they upgrade their existing lines, they'll lose customers to other companies that have insanely fast speeds.

The internet I'll be using in about 2 weeks at the location where I'm moving is about 15mbps, with the option to go to 30mbps, which will be excellent.
 
it seems like most people are using small laptop screens for their internet use...of course there are people with larger desktop screens and those with their computers connected to HDTV's but those are usually 1080p at most

I think by the time we see 3k 4k and 5k screens actually become common, ISP's will already be supplying more than fast enough data rates for us to stream content of those HD+ resolutions
 
Internet

Internet

Well to add some context, RED RAY 4K footage has an average data rate of 2 MB/s....including multichannel audio.

So it isn't obvious you need a big increase in bandwidth to support Digital Cinema quality delivered over the internet.
 
Stuart English said:
Well to add some context, RED RAY 4K footage has an average data rate of 2 MB/s....including multichannel audio.

So it isn't obvious you need a big increase in bandwidth to support Digital Cinema quality delivered over the internet.
Click to expand...

It isn't obvious to me that you don't. 2MB is 16Mb per second. And it needs to be sustained. Even many leased lines are barely capable of that.

Besides, From what I see, the vast majority of streaming Internet viewers are watching it on either a laptop screen or a mobile device, like a phone or an iPad. In either case, I don't see a great demand, or need for that matter, for high resolution source material for that purpose. 5 years from now, who knows. But not this year.
 
Stuart English said:
Well to add some context, RED RAY 4K footage has an average data rate of 2 MB/s....including multichannel audio.

So it isn't obvious you need a big increase in bandwidth to support Digital Cinema quality delivered over the internet.
Click to expand...



But if RED RAY compression was applied to sizes smaller than 4k ...

could it be a rival delivery codec to h264?
 
J Davis said:
But if RED RAY compression was applied to sizes smaller than 4k ...

could it be a rival delivery codec to h264?
Click to expand...

Not unless Red is willing to make it open source.
 
4K via internet

4K via internet

What the original poster said was

maybe Red can help to create a new standard for online video quality beyond what we see now. .
Click to expand...

I stand by what I said.

It isn't obvious that you need a big increase in network speed to deliver 4K resolution Digital Cinema quality images.
 
I think if RED had any plans to use the RED RAY codec for internet distribution

then they would have an even more 'lips sealed' policy on that topic than they would have on their cameras.
 
M Most said:
It isn't obvious to me that you don't. 2MB is 16Mb per second. And it needs to be sustained. Even many leased lines are barely capable of that.

...
Click to expand...

I just tested my download speed and it came in at about 17Mbps. You could argue that is isn't sustained but this is what I usually get via my normal cable connection. It is in the ballpark
 
Stuart,

I don't understand what you mean by "it isn't obvious" ... it is obvious that you need higher speeds, or obvious that you don't???

Also, maybe I don't understand the technical side well enough -- but it seems that most connections struggle to stream full HD footage. And 4k is exponentially more data, right?

Terry -- 16mbps is definitely more in the high end. Just search the major companies like ATT, Time Warner, etc ... not all offer speeds of up to 15-20mbps, and for those that do -- it's the highest level of service.

M Most -- "sustained" is a good point because may of the connections do go up and down in their speed.

In conjunction with the Red codec, maybe having a Red "player" (that's much better than Adobe or even Quicktime) that's optimized for Red footage would be a smart idea. Another way to spread the Red branding message.

Sure, it wouldn't necessary be ideal for Apple mobile devices -- but 3k, 4k, 5k footage will never be for those devices anyway.

Peter -- good point about the monitors. Most of the 4k ones I've seen start at 10-15 grand and go up from there. That's the big barrier right now. I wonder if/when Apple will bump there laptops and monitors up to something higher ...

Anthony
 
Here in France, 99% of internet connected have theorical 25-30Mb ADSL for 30€/month. In real life, on a good website, I download at 2,5 MB/sec... which is quite nice.

In big cities, optic fiber and 100Mb are coming quickly... Internet Movie Distribution is already widly done, with h264, but the quality is rather poor.

A Internet version of Redcode could be a major game changer for boosting Internet Provider to upgrade their network, in USA. Charging of full quality movies could make them a lot of money.
 
RED RAY at 2K?

RED RAY at 2K?

it seems that most connections struggle to stream full HD footage. And 4k is exponentially more data, right?
Click to expand...

You might expect that to be so; but RED RAY at 4K uses a much LOWER data rate than Blue Ray at 1080p, about 2MB/s.

16mbps is definitely more in the high end. Just search the major companies like ATT, Time Warner, etc ... not all offer speeds of up to 15-20mbps, and for those that do -- it's the highest level of service.
Click to expand...

Here in France .... on a good website, I download at 2.5 MB/sec...
Click to expand...

i.e. faster than real time delivery of a 4K Digital Cinema quality movie.

Maybe US service providers need to catch up to the rest of the world :-)
 
Stuart English said:
Maybe US service providers need to catch up to the rest of the world :-)
Click to expand...

I have Cox's regular cable internet and right now I am on my old laptop on the other side of my house from the router. I just checked my speed and it was download 8.54 and upload 2.1....
 
Last edited:
Okay Stuart!

Is it because of RedRay's proprietary compression that allows you to use
less data but still maintain superior 4k image quality?

Anthony
 
Brian Petrie said:
I have Cox's regular cable internet and right now I am on my old laptop on the other side of my house from the router. I just checked my speed and it was download 8.54 and upload 2.1 so Red Ray should work for many I'd assume.
Click to expand...
The wireless internet dongle I use on my laptop ALWAYS says 7.2Mb/sec.

Yeah right....
That's probably between the cellphone tower up the road and my place, 'cause I sure as hell don't get anything like that download speed!

I mean it's great because I can take it on the road, and I can plug it into of the family's computers and it's cheap enough, but you need to keep your B.S. detector on at all times when researching this sort of thing:laugh:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top