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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Camera Shootout

Zacuto will be producing more content like this in the future. More stuff where it's not so much about the Zacuto products but about filmmaking in general. Be on the lookout. Keep the comments coming!
 
I agree. It's a pretty good test, but more so of a way for Zacuto to show that they are involved in various Camera markets.

It might help them if they listed the Camera specs, shooting environment, and post process for each clip. Also, if wouldn't hurt to mention that the back focus may not have been set correctly for the RED. :-)
 
If I recall correctly, the last Zacuto camera comparison was flawed.

But the difference in f-stop is so blatantly wrong. (Although ultimately it didn't matter either way, because it looked fine.) Still, it just makes Zacuto and the testers look bad.

Watching the interview just made me more unimpressed with them. I'm not going to bother with details, but some of the statements they said... :blink::whistling:

Okay... I know I said I wouldn't bother with details... but...

... one of them mentioned that a considering factor is the ease of the workflow and being able to just shoot what you see is what you get. But Red has many workflows and not just 4kraw, convert to dpx, etc. How about a Redspace, straight to QT, etc.? I've seen users post QT that came straight out of their cameras without any post and it looked fantastic and at the very least would have more then held up to this footage.

Sorry, guys, but all of you looked like bumbling amateurs.

And this isn't even about Red. I love tests. Just do it right... and smart. There's more to it then just shooting the same scene and having access to all this equipment.
 
The RED was set at f/1.4 because Jens Bogehegn, the DP of the shoot with 20+ years of experience, wanted the RED to be setup in comparison to the rest of the cameras with and without adapters.

As we stated in the video (I believe) and on various forums, this isn't a scientific test. Next time, we'll take these things into better consideration (exposure, f-stop, backfocus, etc.)
 
jstunzi said:
The RED was set at f/1.4 because Jens Bogehegn, the DP of the shoot with 20+ years of experience, wanted the RED to be setup in comparison to the rest of the cameras with and without adapters.

As we stated in the video (I believe) and on various forums, this isn't a scientific test. Next time, we'll take these things into better consideration (exposure, f-stop, backfocus, etc.)
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I don't understand the explanation. So why wasn't the film camera at 1.4? (either get a film camera lens that can do the same thing or stop down to f4).

In the same interview, there were also statements like this is "a shootout with a very controlled situation" and that the scene, lighting, conditions, where going to be the same. What impression do you think those statements make?

I think saying "this isn't a scientific test" is more of a general disclaimer so there would be an excuse of not doing it right and to cover yourself and provide an escape route. If someone makes a critical observation, points out a flaw, oversight, etc., you get to say, "well, it's not a scientific test."

Well, what's the point of the test? Other then to get to play with lots of cameras and Zacuto advertising?

I think there are two revealing statements in the interview.

One, that the "point" is to show that all the cameras can look good. Well, actually, I'm not sure there should be a point (goal?) in the start of a comparison test. It makes it subjective and biased. At the very least a good comparison test should be objective, controlled, and methodical to reveal strengths and weaknesses of each camera. Which would be a difficult test if it was thorough because Red alone has so many possibilities that would need to be addressed and compared.

Two, at NAB, people from all over would come over to Zacuto to see the comparison...

Bottom line... this is just marketing and advertising for Zacuto. It would be better marketing and advertising if they did a really bang up job on this. So next time, take more then 1 week (if I heard right) to go from idea, to prep, to execution.

Sorry, I'm sounding harsh, but this is more of a disservice to the cameras involved, and, ironically, to Zacuto too.
 
Jason, I share your lack of understanding. If film is at f4, and red at f1.4, that's a 3 stop difference in exposure, right? I don't understand why the same lens at the same fstop wasn't at least tried if the comparison was meant to be scientific? Also, if all were graded to look alike, why does the Canon DSLR look so different to the rest? They used the same lens on that as the red, right? But at f2.8? Two stops different, probably in a much sweeter spot on the lens? There's so much not to get here. Why go to all that time and effort?
 
Casey Green said:
It might help them if they listed the Camera specs, shooting environment, and post process for each clip. Also, if wouldn't hurt to mention that the back focus may not have been set correctly for the RED. :-)
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jstunzi said:
We just discovered the problem with backfocus. The camera specifics can be found here http://www.zacutoimages.com/img/v5/p338275948-4.jpg
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I think you meant here?

http://www.zacutoimages.com/p82280286/h1429ae6c#h1429ae6c

Thanks for posting.
 
Hey, jstunzi, I just want to add (and apologize) if I didn't take the time to be more diplomatic in my tone. I can see from your posts that you guys want to take this into the more "filmmaking" realm instead of Zacuto adverstising and are here to get some feedback to make it better next time. Kudos to you for that. I'm sure your tests will improve what that kind of attitude.
 
Albert Armes said:
Jason, I share your lack of understanding. If film is at f4, and red at f1.4, that's a 3 stop difference in exposure, right? I don't understand why the same lens at the same fstop wasn't at least tried if the comparison was meant to be scientific? Also, if all were graded to look alike, why does the Canon DSLR look so different to the rest? They used the same lens on that as the red, right? But at f2.8? Two stops different, probably in a much sweeter spot on the lens? There's so much not to get here. Why go to all that time and effort?
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Yeah, stopped down, you're using the better part of the glass (well, depending on the manufacturer and glass).

A lot of the footage coming out of the canon is showing that something is going on with the darker range of values. In night shots, images quickly crush to black when it should be holding more details. I'm not sure, but I don't think the look of this canon test was a direct result of grading. Other tests say they didn't do any grading, straight from camera, and the darks look pretty crappy to me.
 
I would like to have seen the same lens (Zeiss Super-speed 50mm) used on the RED at the same stop as the Aaton 35-III.

Also, the RED was shot at REDCODE 28. Why not 36?

Oh well. Next time. Thanks again for you efforts.
 
Jason, have you seen the Canon "black dots" appearing to the right of bright lights in the stills images? It's in the raw data too from what I've been reading. This is not good. I wonder if Canon will have to do a recall on the camera or if they can fix it in firmware?
 
Jason Ing said:
I don't understand the explanation. So why wasn't the film camera at 1.4? (either get a film camera lens that can do the same thing or stop down to f4).
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The film was properly exposed to a portion on the female violinists face and the same should have been down with the RED. However, as you know it wasn't. We lit everything for the HVX with M2 and worked our way up towards the RED and film cameras. If we had worked out way down, things might have been different and all cameras would have been at f/4 or what not. There is footage with a Zeiss 50mm PL prime lens but I do not think it was colortimed in the end.


Jason Ing said:
In the same interview, there were also statements like this is "a shootout with a very controlled situation" and that the scene, lighting, conditions, where going to be the same. What impression do you think those statements make?
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The scene was the same, the lighting didn't change, the frame size obviously changed with each camera from 1/3 inch all the way up to full frame.


Jason Ing said:
Well, what's the point of the test? Other then to get to play with lots of cameras and Zacuto advertising?
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Zacuto advertising? I mean we don't really mention Zacuto at all in the video besides the filming location and in the credits. If Zacuto had wanted to advertise they would've been talking about how their Universal Baseplate was on most every camera and how their products work for all cameras from small HDV cameras all the way up to the RED. So yes, it is advertisement for Zacuto but that's not the purpose that I intended as did everyone at Zacuto for their video.



Jason Ing said:
Bottom line... this is just marketing and advertising for Zacuto. It would be better marketing and advertising if they did a really bang up job on this. So next time, take more then 1 week (if I heard right) to go from idea, to prep, to execution.

Sorry, I'm sounding harsh, but this is more of a disservice to the cameras involved, and, ironically, to Zacuto too.
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I'm 18 years old and produced this video. I'm not expecting it to be perfect. I don't have years of experience, I don't work for Zacuto, I just wanted to go play with the Canon 5D Mark II in Chicago. The shootout evolved from there. The shootout might be slightly subjective, but it's hard to do these. FreshDV produced the last shootout with Zacuto and they're very well respected within the filmmaking community. They still had a hard time with it and between everyone involved with the first test there was probably 35+ years of experience.
 
Albert Armes said:
Jason, I share your lack of understanding. If film is at f4, and red at f1.4, that's a 3 stop difference in exposure, right? I don't understand why the same lens at the same fstop wasn't at least tried if the comparison was meant to be scientific? Also, if all were graded to look alike, why does the Canon DSLR look so different to the rest? They used the same lens on that as the red, right? But at f2.8? Two stops different, probably in a much sweeter spot on the lens? There's so much not to get here. Why go to all that time and effort?
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The color timing post production house in Chicago hadn't dealt with footage from the Canon DSLR before. The colorist even came into the other room (we had two colorists going at once) and asked us what type of camera it was because he was surprised when he saw the footage as to the color range.



Jason Ing said:
Yeah, stopped down, you're using the better part of the glass (well, depending on the manufacturer and glass).

A lot of the footage coming out of the canon is showing that something is going on with the darker range of values. In night shots, images quickly crush to black when it should be holding more details. I'm not sure, but I don't think the look of this canon test was a direct result of grading. Other tests say they didn't do any grading, straight from camera, and the darks look pretty crappy to me.
Click to expand...

I must agree from my nighttime footage that this is the case. The camera excels in dark environment and it's nice to have something light sensative enough to get shots like the ones we did in the pitch-black color-timing room (see video) and some of the ones I took in Chicago. However, you really add a lot of grain and noise to your images. These DSLRs aren't going to kill the Scarlet, RED, or Epic any time soon. There's a reason most of the footage from the 5D2 is at night and it's because that's where this camera shines.



Casey Green said:
I would like to have seen the same lens (Zeiss Super-speed 50mm) used on the RED at the same stop as the Aaton 35-III.

Also, the RED was shot at REDCODE 28. Why not 36?

Oh well. Next time. Thanks again for you efforts.
Click to expand...

You'd have to ask Chris. Any ideas Chris?
 
People take these tests way too seriously. I enjoy them... and I understand the effort it takes to shoot any comparative test, to organize the shoot, and do the post, so I'm not going to nickpick someone else's hard work, but everyone should just take any test with a grain of salt, as in "well, that's interesting... I'll keep it mind when I do my test..."

If the 35mm test was shot on 500 ASA film using the manufacturer's rating, and the RED was rated at 320 ASA, that should have been only a 2/3-stop difference in exposure and depth of field. And one could have just rated the 500 ASA film at 320 ASA for the sake of matching the f-stop. So I don't understand the explanation for why the 35mm was shot at f/4 and the RED at f/1.4 unless the RED was rated very slow or the light levels were not the same in the two tests.

I was surprised at how harsh the Canon DSLR footage was -- not very encouraging.
 
Actually, I think the reaction here so far has been mostly pretty reasonable.

It's always good to see these tests, and I think everyone wanted to get more information on what was being tested, which was not available right from the start.

Now that it is, things are more in perspective.
 
Albert Armes said:
There a visible jump in dof between the red and film, so that sort of backs up that the fstop is different between them. Both film and red cameras have pl mounts, right? Surely the same lens could have been used too? The link says Film, Zeiss Superspeed 50mm f/4 and red Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50mm ZF f/1.4.
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There should have not been any changes in DOF between RED and film. Same lens = same DOF. The focus also appeared a bit off. I did however notice some clipping in the candle flame, while film did not have this shortcoming. It appears somehow the test went wrong.
 
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