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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Buying Mac Pro today

Here's a thought about what we might see in 2014 along the lines of what I've seen lately....

Mini-tower desktop with single 5.25 bay for optical drive

Single high-end Xeon CPU with Intel HD Graphics (It wouldn't be as bad as it sounds when you take into account Thunderbolt-driven GPUs and processing cards could be used for additional processing power and that Apple is on the tech-agnostic OpenCL bandwagon with their products)

Internal 2.5in SSD options (RAID 0/1)

Several RAM slots

4-port Thunderbolt 2.0 expandability for optical drives, external GPUs, processing cards, and the such.

4-port USB 3.0 expandability

37-inch Apple whatevertheheckyouwannacallit super-high resolution display with Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 hubs.

I think that would let Apple retake the media machine crown with such a product. Heck, I might even consider buying one.

Would ya buy it?
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
Frankly, it just bugs me when people make things up to answer someone's question. That's all. Apple never telegraphs what they do, either way. So you know exactly what I do - NADA. :frown2:
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Here is a small selection of sources, some of which have been around for months for the things I "made up", starting with Bloomberg BusinessWeek... http://buswk.co/t9pn5Z http://bit.ly/sYpxCD http://bit.ly/rK47P9 Jeff Kilgroe does have a legitimate argument concerning Intel processors but I think this is only part of the equation. Personally I do hope that the pro continues to get serious attention at Apple but I fear that is not what will happen.
 
William Albertini said:
Here is a small selection of sources, some of which have been around for months for the things I "made up", starting with Bloomberg BusinessWeek... http://buswk.co/t9pn5Z http://bit.ly/sYpxCD http://bit.ly/rK47P9
Click to expand...

That small selection is really small... One... And the link doesn't work.

William Albertini said:
Yes, FCPX is a massive overhaul... of iMovie.
Click to expand...

But that is meant to provoke, rather than answer the question; how does it support the notion that Apple is getting abandoning pro markets for consumer electronics?
 
William Albertini said:
Sorry, I did not leave enough space between the links and you read them as one:
http://buswk.co/t9pn5Z
http://bit.ly/sYpxCD
http://bit.ly/rK47P9
Click to expand...

Thanks, but two of those articles are based upon the speculation of the other. Both Newsy and Businessweek quote your Apple Insider article as their primary source, and it doesn't even elude to a source inside Apple as the origin of their "reports". It is pure speculation.

I am still interested to hear your FCP argument. Did that idea also come from AppleInsider? From your linked blog entry:
"As AppleInsider exclusively reported during the sum mer of 2010, the company similarly retargeted its high end Final Cut Pro to serve a more mass market prosumer audience, allowing it to add major architectural improvements to the software while making it more approachable and more affordable to the mainstream pool of customers who were actually buying it."
Click to expand...

The similarities between FCPX and iMovie are undeniable and iMovie was 64 bit before FCP. Those two facts seem to have lead many to speculate that FCPX is indeed based upon iMovie. They may be right, however that possibility alone does not lead to the conclusion that Apple's intention was to neuter FCP and make it iMovie. I suggest that the updates are evidence of Apple's own assertion that FCP remains targeted at the professional market.

Apple has never been secretive about their common goal for all of it's products, both hardware and software, professional and consumer. Their primary aim is to make technological products where the technology is so well designed and intuitive that the tech gets out of the way. They want editing with FCP to be as natural and easy for Pro editors as iMovie is for consumers. Both programs serve to do the same basic tasks, after all and those tasks have not changed since the advent of films. A cut is a cut. With those things in mind it only makes sense that the two products would one day resemble one another.

AppleInsider is a blog. It isn't really subject to the rigors of journalism. If you get your news from a blog, or your news gets it's facts from a blog and nowhere else, then it is time to consider another news outlet.
 
This would make sense to me as well. What about a Mac Pro tower that is portable? I know the REDUSER community would jump on these.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
I think moving forward, we're going to see a re-designed Mac Pro that is smaller, sleeker, and ironically more flexible, than its predecessors. ...Just my theory on this.
Click to expand...
 
I agree with Kilgroe. The feeling I have is that apple are moving towards smaller set ups. FCP X for me is a proof of, that there's software out there that can be used on laptops and still be fairly powerful. Rumors have been that the next macpro line up would be "rackable" and that makes sense to me as they're already marketing Mac mini as a server. Them investing in flash technology and the rumors of the next mac book pro line being MacBook air design strengthens that. I think they will come out with a smaller macpro version. That they haven't already discarded the macpro tells me they've been working on something "revolutionary". I could be wrong, but it's been very long since they updated and by now they've should have announced its death if they didn't want to continue with it. That's just my two cents, but I have a feeling they're to come with a kind of pro version of Mac mini's and if that's what we want is maybe another thing. I just see that they could use the flash technology to do very slim fast drives and hopefully raid them so there's some storage as well. The thunderbolt technology speaks for daisy chaining products to upgrade and when it goes optical it will be even faster...

So there's a lot of things out there making me think there's definitely things in the making. To me it looks like the future will be more integrated between your desktop and your laptop. That you can work in the field take it home and finish up on your desktop version without changing anything but your computer.

After all - apples business strategy is making things easy for us and although they have a huge sales in general market they haven't discarded pro market so far. I think they're trying to reinvent it for us. FCP X is that to me - for good or for bad - I have a feeling it will be something very strong when the next generation grows up with it. It has it quirks, but they're clearly having an upgrade path for it and multicam editing speaks strongly for that. It's very good from my experience and I happen to like FCP X no matter how different it is to what I've become used to. I work extremely fast with it even though there's still a learning curve and that's on my laptop. That makes me think new generations will be accustomed to it. So what if it's like iMovie - who says that way is the wrong way? Don't forget that FCP x is made by the same people who cooked up both the first premiere and FCP in the first place (some of them are from avid as well) - why would they do that? If it wasn't because they think it will be a more useful way of editing? Not saying it is for everyone, but at least someone is trying to change the ways of thinking.

The integration between FCP 7 and FCP x is a lot more difficult than people think as they're completely different in how they read and organize files during "importing" - that's been the akilles heel as people want to migrate with their projects, but in the long run FCP 7 will be obsolete and by then your either on FCP x or another platform. Up to you.

It was a rocky road to migrate over to OSX, but look at it now? 10 years later.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Complete, utter and ignorant nonsense.
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Do we need to provide screen shots, cuz believe me the Imove 08 interface is identical to the FCPX interface Terry, whether you want to accept it or not. Imovie was 64 bit before FCP was, and clearly based on the interface alone a lot of the coding made it into FCPX layout wise. Now that being said FCPX with its newest update clearly has a lot of the missing features back in it, so there is much less to complain about now then there was on June 21st, 2011.

I don't mean to hijack (yet another thread) that is meant to talk about if and when there will be a new Mac Pro and the pros and cons of waiting. However when you look at the lack of a new workstation coupled with the marketing disaster of FCPX you must admit its a serious issue for large firms and schools. Without a road map for if Apple intends to kill their workstation or not many people/firms are on the wall about what to do workflow wise in the long term. Yes we all know Apple is secretive but pros don't like companies that EOL at will without road maps. That is partially why we all are so hesitant now.

I have been reading about Apple earnings and their entire desktop line together equals 6 percent of their business. Keep in mind this is including the mini and imac in that figure. So the mac pro itself is probably 1-2 percent of Apples business, and that is damned scary for us pros because if not now, soon Apple really will EOL the only product they make that has any decent expandability for us power users. I think this is a very real concern, given its lacking thunderbolt and its been a record long time since an update at this point I think a lot of us are just hoping they release a new one at all.
 
Scott Crawley said:
I am still interested to hear your FCP argument. Did that idea also come from AppleInsider? From your linked blog entry:
Click to expand...
No Scott I did not get the argument from AI but I should have as it meshes with my theory. I mentioned "The FCPX debacle" earlier as an example of how I feel that Apple has moved beyond the pro market. I speak from personal experience, it was a debacle, luckily I read the release notes before installing as it does not like to cohabit with FCP7. Transferring projects from 7 to x was nigh impossible, there was no smooth transition which absolutely should be considered the bare minimum of moving from an older to a newer product bearing the same moniker. I should also note that FCPX dropped with less features than its venerable predecessor. I have no problem with Apple rewriting a program from the ground up however if they were serious about holding on to their existing FCP user base Apple should have implemented a transition policy with the owners of FCP7 (Studio). They could have stated: "hey guys this is a really cool new product and we think you will like it, however it is not FCP therefore we are giving it to you for 12-18 months as part of your FCP7 package after which FCP7 will terminate". I went through something like this transitioning from Power Animator to Maya and it worked well. Apple really dropped the ball on this and it is not like they do not know how to make difficult transitions, they did an admirable job of heavy lifting from os9 to X… I really do suspect that Apple is ceding the high ground to the other players and has positioned FCPX to the prosumer market through aggressive pricing and simplified feature set just as I believe that Apple will eliminate its pro tower lineup, there may be one more generation but after that probably not.
 
Back to hardware: is anybody running a Hackintosh solution with RedRocket, it seems like this is becoming more and more viable for those who want to stick with the Mac operating system, keep costs down and have a powerful setup.
 
William Albertini said:
Back to hardware: is anybody running a Hackintosh solution with RedRocket, it seems like this is becoming more and more viable for those who want to stick with the Mac operating system, keep costs down and have a powerful setup.
Click to expand...

How much money are you really saving, though - a couple grand? That's like 2 days pay on a union shoot w/OT...
 
The whole FCX debacle, and the lack of slots, Nvidia options, and the uncertain future of the MacPro have helped me make the decision to build a custom PC.

Luckily the 2 programs I've switched to, Avid and Premiere, are cross-platform, so I suspect the transition process to be short.
 
William Albertini said:
No Scott I did not get the argument from AI but I should have as it meshes with my theory. I mentioned "The FCPX debacle" earlier as an example of how I feel that Apple has moved beyond the pro market. I speak from personal experience, it was a debacle, luckily I read the release notes before installing as it does not like to cohabit with FCP7. Transferring projects from 7 to x was nigh impossible, there was no smooth transition which absolutely should be considered the bare minimum of moving from an older to a newer product bearing the same moniker. I should also note that FCPX dropped with less features than its venerable predecessor. I have no problem with Apple rewriting a program from the ground up however if they were serious about holding on to their existing FCP user base Apple should have implemented a transition policy with the owners of FCP7 (Studio). They could have stated: "hey guys this is a really cool new product and we think you will like it, however it is not FCP therefore we are giving it to you for 12-18 months as part of your FCP7 package after which FCP7 will terminate". I went through something like this transitioning from Power Animator to Maya and it worked well. Apple really dropped the ball on this and it is not like they do not know how to make difficult transitions, they did an admirable job of heavy lifting from os9 to X… I really do suspect that Apple is ceding the high ground to the other players and has positioned FCPX to the prosumer market through aggressive pricing and simplified feature set just as I believe that Apple will eliminate its pro tower lineup, there may be one more generation but after that probably not.
Click to expand...

I can respect that. You have me thinking about the aggressive pricing. I can quickly come up with a few possible alternative reasons for that, but I don't wish to seem argumentative, so I will spare you those details.

Sure the release of FCPX was FUBAR, but it was a fairly isolated incident IMHO. It was a monumental FU, but screwing the pooch on that does not equate to abandoning the pursuit of the Pro market across the board. Some pros may have felt abandoned when their tool was EOL'd, and justifiably so, but that doesn't mean that Apple is no longer interested in their business. It was a FU, plain and simple. That's my take, though I share a portion of your skepticism for the future. Trust will have to be earned again.
 
Truthfully if Apple could get the external pci thunderbolt slots to work as good with GPU's as an internal slot, the mac pro could die and it would not matter to any of us (other then the people who need 6,8,12 cores instead of 4). Problem being thunderbolt doesn't have enough throughput for high end GPU's and so far we have no way to use external GPU's because of "interpolation issues". I think a major reason anyone buys a mac pro is the fact we have expandability pci card wise. So far the external TB pci slots i have seen have addressed every need we could ever have other then GPU wise. Perhaps the next rendition of thunderbolt will have the proper throughput to finally get external GPU's working. I must admit I would be willing to go the hackentosh route but the fact that you essentially have no support from Apple/NLE makers by doing that concerns me. I had been thinking about trying to hack a pc several years back but every professional in my area i consulted about the idea advised me to steer clear simply for lack of support.

Even without new CPU options I can't understand why Apple insists on not updating the Mac Pro for simply the sake of including thunderbolt. The mbp has had thunderbolt for a damn solid year at this point and its totally inept that the workstation doesn't have anyway to get the port on it, i mean if the thunderbolt drives had usb3 or firewire on them it wouldn't be such a big deal but for heavens sake the only thunderbolt drives have no other ports on them that can even hook up to a mac pro at this time. so this is basically creating a workflow issue since someone might want a fast drive for their mbp or w/e but now needs to resort to copy pasting off the fast TB drive to a slower drive just to get the material on to a workstation (where you probably need to then copy paste it a third time into an internal drive). that just seems like a pain. shouldn't the top of the line have this port too? i hope the release a new mac pro soon or EOL it soon, but until we get closure its hard to really figure out what to do purchase order wise
 
Scott Crawley said:
I can respect that. You have me thinking about the aggressive pricing. I can quickly come up with a few possible alternative reasons for that, but I don't wish to seem argumentative, so I will spare you those details.

Sure the release of FCPX was FUBAR, but it was a fairly isolated incident IMHO. It was a monumental FU, but screwing the pooch on that does not equate to abandoning the pursuit of the Pro market across the board. Some pros may have felt abandoned when their tool was EOL'd, and justifiably so, but that doesn't mean that Apple is no longer interested in their business. It was a FU, plain and simple. That's my take, though I share a portion of your skepticism for the future. Trust will have to be earned again.
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I really do hope they direct more resources toward pro stuff, everything I have and have had for the last 10 years is Mac and for the most part it is great.
 
Brian Merlen said:
Even without new CPU options I can't understand why Apple insists on not updating the Mac Pro for simply the sake of including thunderbolt.
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Intel has missed a number of delivery dates for the new chips, and most seem to agree that the Mac Pro is overdue for a re-design. With those things in mind, imagine yourself in their shoes. You have an entirely new system design all ready to go and your chip manufacturer tells you, "Yup, plan on six months." then Oops, we're gonna miss that by a few, just hold on for a few more months... What do you do? You could invest the resources and make the changes to you legacy system, but if Intel were to meet one of their projections, that update would never see the street. Do you pull the trigger? When?

Apple rushed FCPX out the door and that went over like a fart in church. What do you suppose the reaction would be to a new MacPro tower with nothing more than thunderbolt added after all this time? Even the loyalists would have second thoughts. That is what would happen. They would look inept x2. Remember too that you are the new guy trying to fill Steve's shoes... No pressure.

Those seem like two likely reasons why your wish has not been answered... From my couch they seem likely. ;-)
 
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Brian Merlen said:
Truthfully if Apple could get the external pci thunderbolt slots to work as good with GPU's as an internal slot, the mac pro could die and it would not matter to any of us (other then the people who need 6,8,12 cores instead of 4). Problem being thunderbolt doesn't have enough throughput for high end GPU's and so far we have no way to use external GPU's because of "interpolation issues". I think a major reason anyone buys a mac pro is the fact we have expandability pci card wise. So far the external TB pci slots i have seen have addressed every need we could ever have other then GPU wise. Perhaps the next rendition of thunderbolt will have the proper throughput to finally get external GPU's working. I must admit I would be willing to go the hackentosh route but the fact that you essentially have no support from Apple/NLE makers by doing that concerns me. I had been thinking about trying to hack a pc several years back but every professional in my area i consulted about the idea advised me to steer clear simply for lack of support.

Even without new CPU options I can't understand why Apple insists on not updating the Mac Pro for simply the sake of including thunderbolt. The mbp has had thunderbolt for a damn solid year at this point and its totally inept that the workstation doesn't have anyway to get the port on it, i mean if the thunderbolt drives had usb3 or firewire on them it wouldn't be such a big deal but for heavens sake the only thunderbolt drives have no other ports on them that can even hook up to a mac pro at this time. so this is basically creating a workflow issue since someone might want a fast drive for their mbp or w/e but now needs to resort to copy pasting off the fast TB drive to a slower drive just to get the material on to a workstation (where you probably need to then copy paste it a third time into an internal drive). that just seems like a pain. shouldn't the top of the line have this port too? i hope the release a new mac pro soon or EOL it soon, but until we get closure its hard to really figure out what to do purchase order wise
Click to expand...

Yes, Thunderbolt is by no means a magic solution. External GPUs work just fine on Windows - one of Intel's criteria when designing Thunderbolt was so it appears as any regular PCIe 4x slot. Not sure what the issue is on Mac OS X, but most likely something to do with drivers and GDI. I have no clue what "interpolation issues" might mean. Anyway, Sony Vaio Z implemented a proper external GPU over Thunderbolt solution using HD 6630M nearly a year back - it was actually the very first use of Thunderbolt. The 2nd gen Vaio Z is already out, and it uses a HD 6650M. Benchmarks between similarly specced laptops with HD 6630M and Vaio Z clearly show that Thunderbolt is already slightly bottlenecked. The new Vaio Z is only some 5% faster despite HD 6650M being theoretically a good 20% ahead. Not awfully promising when you consider a top range HD 7970 has 6x the throughput of HD 6650M. AMD's soon to release Trinity APUs will beat HD 6650M with its integrated graphics. (The current gen Llano laptop APUs are already at 6620 level) That said, not every device needs so much bandwidth. Rocket is a 8x device to begin with, and doesn't seem to be facing too much of a bottleneck at 4x.

As for Mac Pro - as Scott explains above, blame Intel. They told everyone that SB-EP will release in 2011. Then pushed it back to Q4, December, now March. It's not just Apple - every vendor offering 2P standalone workstation solutions has been affected. Look at something like HP Z800 - it is not much older than the Mac Pro. That said, to HP and the likes the 2P standalone workstation is a very niche segment, while it is Apple's only product in the performance market - perhaps they could have released a refresh. Back to SB-EP - there will most likely be a new Mac Pro, look for it around mid-2012, although it may very well be the last x86 high-performance Mac Pro. It will get you 80 PCIe 3.0 lanes in total - that is 40 times the bandwidth of Thunderbolt, and even that is not much more than adequate in the age of multiple GPUs. So, as we move into higher performance systems, Thunderbolt starts to look increasingly limited. Faster (several times) interconnects like InfiniBand are much more appealing. (though I am not sure if Mac OS X will ever support InfiniBand)
 
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