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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Buy glass and rent a brain? Or buy a brain and rent glass?

I'm not nearly as savvy or as experienced as others in this thread ... but I can say what I've heard from DP's in LA and Toronto (where our Red One has spent a lot of time) ...

According to them, RPP's are not all that desirable from a rental perspective -- not unless it's a small indie filmmaker with limited budget or corporate job where they aren't as picky about lenses.

Of course, this is just a couple guys and I'm see many rental houses with complete Red packages that include lenses. So surely they must be getting rented by someone.

Also, this doesn't mean that they aren't great -- just that they don't have the reputation that Arri/Zeiss, Panavision, Cooke, Angenieux, and others have. And filmmakers can be pretty snobby about the name on the side of their gear ;-)

So I'm not sure the "glass is a better investment" people are considering that it doesn't carry as much weight when we're talking about RPP's and not a high-end lens set that costs six-figures (or multiple six-figures!)

I would never want to dissuade anyone from Red anything -- especially since everything I hear about RPP's is resoundingly positive. But if rental income is a big concern, I've heard sets of the Zeiss CP2's rent very easily (and at good prices) ... the fact that Zeiss has largely unable to meet the demand of them since launch has probably heightened this rental demand.

From what those here have said, their quality is perhaps not as good as RPP's -- and it sucks the aperture is not consistent across all focal lengths -- but at less than $4000 each, it would probably be very easy to recover your investment and then you'd have a decent set with you all the time that you could be using your brain with.

Just my two cents :-)
 
Buy glass, a set of Zeiss CP2's a good place to start, you will have and use these the rest of your life, a camera brain 2-3 years max if you want to be competitive.
 
Ash Worth said:
Buy glass, a set of Zeiss CP2's a good place to start, you will have and use these the rest of your life, a camera brain 2-3 years max if you want to be competitive.
Click to expand...

If I may hijack this thread a little...

Are a set of CP's really worth the cash over a set of Zeiss ZE stills lenses? I know the mechanical differences and Im sure, from a rental business plan point of view, they are worth the difference. But Im not likely to do that and just slowly pay them off by self shooting. On the point of them being a long term investment.. any thoughts?
 
Of course you shouldn't overlook the possibility that new lenses coming into the market can reduce the value of your glass. What costs $30K this year could go for $15K in a few years. There may be more companies putting out PL mount Primes in the coming years. Must factor in the possibility. If these are intended as your lenses you'll use for the rest of your life, then maybe it doesn't matter so much.
 
AnthonyFlores said:
So I'm not sure the "glass is a better investment"
Click to expand...


by the way.. my post about glass being the better investment wasnt referring to red glass.. I get that alot of independent owner operators love their red primes.. but the truth is.. they arent exactly high up on the must have glass rental chart..

if someone is renting their red primes at 250/day and i can get a standard speed set at 250 a day.. im going to go with the zeiss, as they look better to me.
 
the zeiss compact primes arent a good investment either..

the scale is way to crazy on them.. I own the ZF's which are great. look good.. and most importantly i didnt spend more than 7 grand on them when its all done and said..

but forking out 20-30k for lenses that are all over the place.. T1.4 T2 and T 3.5 would be really retarded
 
I think the market is somewhat location specific, as well. Some places are practically awash in the best glass ever made. Other places are less...well supplied. So what might be the little fish in the big pond other places might just end up being among the finest PL mount lenses within quite a distance in others.

And that availability leads to market competition, which of course affects price.

I say this because many prefer lenses over the RPPs or RPZs...but when the choice is limited to those or DSLR lenses...
 
I first would get the camera, and then I get glass for every $ I have left. I have found as many here have said before that most times clients ask after Master Primes, Ultra Primes or they don't care what glass you use. I have 18-85, 17-50 RPZ and some RPP and they are beautiful and I just love them. My budget don't allow MP or UP.
 
Gary Paul Walker said:
Investment in excellent glass is always a good idea. Technology of the brains will always improve, but great glass can last you a lifetime
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+1, if you are indeed considering that choice, buy the glass ... you can use the glass on other cameras like the AF-100 etc.
 
George Butterfield said:
+1, if you are indeed considering that choice, buy the glass ... you can use the glass on other cameras like the AF-100 etc.
Click to expand...

Yes, the AF100 w/RPP's seems like a good idea. Another option I'm considering is an Epic Lite brain with the upcoming Sony PL mounted primes.

I know there isn't too much info in these lenses other than cost, but any thoughts on this combination?
 
Hey all,

I figured this would be the best thread to post this question....

I am in the same boat as many others who are on the edge about jumping into the big leagues and purchasing a Red One (MX). Now I realize talent and connections are the two best ways of making back the 20k+ investment, but I was wondering in a general way, is it realistic to make back that money in say a year period? I would be in the NYC or LA area, where there are tons of great rental houses to rent from, so would investing in the camera in this area be useless or financially daft? Lenses would be a must too but assume I would have a few RPP's or a SS or two.

Sorry for the long message, this has just been a stressful few months deciding whether or not to jump into the game.

Cheers,

Tim
 
Timothy, if you mean for rental, NO. Too much competition and once Epic is out, R1 will be much less requested.

If you mean for paid work, only you can answer that. Are you booked for alot of work? Do you clients want/need RED quality? Can you charge the extra needed to recoup costs of the R1? What about extra post work?
 
The thing about buying glass is you have to maintain it properly (like anything else) but maintaining lenses and keeping them properly calumeted can get very pricey. Most big rental houses have professionals in house maintaining their equipment.

If you want my advise, don't buy either one. Rent both. If you buy a brain with no glass and glass with no brain what is the point? You might as well rent the entire package when you need it. If you aren't making any income from the equipment then whats the point in owning it?

On the other spectrum, buy the brain and one good prime like a 25 or 35. That's all you're going to be using 90% of the time anyhow. If you need other lenses for parts of the shoot, rent them.
 
Timothy_Mollen said:
Hey all,

I figured this would be the best thread to post this question....

I am in the same boat as many others who are on the edge about jumping into the big leagues and purchasing a Red One (MX). Now I realize talent and connections are the two best ways of making back the 20k+ investment, but I was wondering in a general way, is it realistic to make back that money in say a year period? I would be in the NYC or LA area, where there are tons of great rental houses to rent from, so would investing in the camera in this area be useless or financially daft? Lenses would be a must too but assume I would have a few RPP's or a SS or two.

Sorry for the long message, this has just been a stressful few months deciding whether or not to jump into the game.

Cheers,

Tim
Click to expand...

BUY MINE its 25% OFF :) ... the BEST WAY to compete with rental houses is to cater to INDIE FILMMAKERS as an OWNER/OPERATOR. Even if they have a DP, you can rent yourself AND the camera as a PACKAGE. Many many people make their $ back as owner/ops. (ESPECIALLY IN THOSE MARKETS)

FACT: BIG PRODUCTIONS will go to rental houses.
FACT: SMALL INDIE PRODUCTIONS NEED OWNER OPS because their budgets are limited.

If you rent yourself and your camera (after EPIC ships) for (lets go super low and say $500/day) most indies shoot 3 weks so its a monthly 10 day rental of $5000 per indie. A SCREAMING DEAL FOR THEM and you make your $ back in 3 projects. (You should be able to get more per day)
3 Day Rental week
10 Day Rental Month is pretty standard

Remember, the M-X has the SAME CHIP as the EPIC and was good enough for Fincher on Social Network and for the STUDIOS on Pirates 4. Nobody can argue with that.

WORST CASE SCENARIO is you sell the M-X for $12,500 to $15,000 in a year.

You should EASILY be able to make $10K in a year on your camera. More likely more if you become the "INDIE FRIENDLY GUY" in your town.

Im not talking about Craigslist idiots either. Im talking indies with $50K to $150K

good luck.
 
If one decides to go the route of an OWNER/OPERATOR, would they get the Epic, or Scarlet S35 or FF when they are released?

With all the extras (lenses, mounts, storage, power) how much will that end up costing. I'm asking because I'm in film school at MPI (Motion Picture Institute of Michigan) and wish to be a cinematographer/camera operator when i graduate next fall. . .
 
I think you are better off getting a small Canon prime kit and using that on Epic-S. Then get a PL kit after you make a bunch of movies and can pay for it.
 
Thanks!

Thanks!

FACT: BIG PRODUCTIONS will go to rental houses.
FACT: SMALL INDIE PRODUCTIONS NEED OWNER OPS because their budgets are limited.

If you rent yourself and your camera (after EPIC ships) for (lets go super low and say $500/day) most indies shoot 3 weks so its a monthly 10 day rental of $5000 per indie. A SCREAMING DEAL FOR THEM and you make your $ back in 3 projects. (You should be able to get more per day)
3 Day Rental week
10 Day Rental Month is pretty standard

Remember, the M-X has the SAME CHIP as the EPIC and was good enough for Fincher on Social Network and for the STUDIOS on Pirates 4. Nobody can argue with that.

WORST CASE SCENARIO is you sell the M-X for $12,500 to $15,000 in a year.

You should EASILY be able to make $10K in a year on your camera. More likely more if you become the "INDIE FRIENDLY GUY" in your town.

Im not talking about Craigslist idiots either. Im talking indies with $50K to $150K

good luck.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Tim(Great name BTW),

If you could PM me the info on the MX your selling that will be great! Thanks for the tips and stats on owning my own red MX. Despite really wanting the Epic-S, I still want to consider the MX for its full 4K and the chance to upgrade to epic (5K) in the future.

My question is, who will want my MX in three years when Jim and the team make the 10K Mysterium X-treme Flux Capacitor!!! =)
 
Timothy_Mollen said:
My question is, who will want my MX in three years when Jim and the team make the 10K Mysterium X-treme Flux Capacitor!!! =)
Click to expand...

Indie Filmmakers, because they will always be "mostly broke" and besides. The M-X will forever be.. "The Camera that shot... Social Network, Pirates 4, etc etc"
 
I know this is getting of topic, but when you guys shoot a movie for somebody, would the DP have to worry about if the footage in post. Not dealing editing and such, but do you make sure you tell them that editing with red is much more taxing on your computer. IDK i never been on anything bigger than a student films shot on canon 7d's.
 
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