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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Building System For REDCine. Need advice

JustMe said:
We can all see that Redcine is just the core of scratch with the "redcode" node being a modified jpeg2k import.

the same base api's apply.
Scratch has never supported some cards and now has to via the Redcine program.
Click to expand...

well ... I hope "you all" look a little deeper.
 
JustMe said:
We can all see that Redcine is just the core of scratch with the "redcode" node being a modified jpeg2k import.
Click to expand...

Really? Please tell me exactly how the "redcode" node is just a modified j2k import. Can you elaborate on what pieces of color science are and are not part of "the node?" How are you deriving this opinion?

JustMe said:
the same base api's apply.
Scratch has never supported some cards and now has to via the Redcine program.
Click to expand...

Do you have the API for REDCINE and/or SCRATCH? (hint: the answer is "no.")

If you've got opinions, that's fine. Label them as opinions, but please don't try to pass stuff like this off as fact that "we all" can see. Because unless you're part of the code team working on REDCINE and/or SCRATCH, your statements are pure conjecture.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
So whats the fastest processors out there at the moment ? Is it worth waiting ?


Are there certain cases you guys go for ? so many around.. neon lights etc :-/

Are there any that have internal raid bays ?

Cheers

Si
 
flameop said:
So whats the fastest processors out there at the moment ? Is it worth waiting ?


Are there certain cases you guys go for ? so many around.. neon lights etc :-/

Are there any that have internal raid bays ?

Cheers

Si
Click to expand...

you are better off buying one step down from the fastest - the price/performance ratio will always be in your favor if you buy what WAS the latest and greatest but recently got "dethroned" - as far as waiting - well - there will always be a faster chip - so, the answer is - wait as long as you possible can - but when you need - get it - but always buy hardware at the very last possible moment - moments before you pull the trigger - do an extensive internet search

as far as cases go - I like E-ATX rackmount server cases - there are many with hot swap bays - they are heavy and cost $100-$200 more - but they will last forever, tend to have better air circulation and it is easy to upgrade components -

my 2 cents
 
offhollywood said:
Here's a bad ass motherboard for $397 that will supports the latest Intel® Core™2 processors in LGA775 package and also can support Intel® next generation 45nm Multi-Core CPU -
http://www.extreme-pc.ca/showproduct.asp?productid=371730&menu1id=12&menu2id=83&menu3id=44

and for 8 cores there is this -

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182122
Click to expand...

At Umeric we run 16 crossfires with qcore at 3.2ghz - raptors, 8800 gtx x2 sli - water cooled - with 30inch apple's

We downloaded Redcine and some raw files - runs great here... :)
bring on march!

btw Why would you want get such a heavy 3d card for 2d editing or are you thinking 3d compositing also with raw codec?

Thanks
 
umeric said:
At Umeric we run 16 crossfires with qcore at 3.2ghz - raptors, 8800 gtx x2 sli - water cooled - with 30inch apple's

We downloaded Redcine and some raw files - runs great here... :)
bring on march!
Click to expand...

Hey umeric,

Could you supply a bit of information as to the performance that you achieved? Specifically, could you define a specific .r3d file, the settings you used in RedCine and the performance (frame rate processed per unit time) from that same system? While "...runs great..." gives a hint, it would be very helpful to have some high end bench marks to compare against.

Thanks!

Kevin Halverson
 
What is wrong with AMD processors?

I have always used them, and prefer them over intel. Is this some kind of roll-over-effect from the fact that high-end macs from yesteryear are already too crappy to run redcine? Or is it a hardware compatibility issue?
 
Nothing "wrong" with AMD processors. I'm somewhat of an AMD fan myself. Unfortunately their latest offerings are inferior to what Intel is shipping. AMD's reign of CPU superiority ended with the Core2 Xeon processors and AMD has yet to answer back with a superior offering.

Eddie said:
Is this some kind of roll-over-effect from the fact that high-end macs from yesteryear are already too crappy to run redcine?
Click to expand...

I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. Most high-end anything from yesteryear won't run Redcine, including P4 systems and many AMD systems. RED does not support any PowerPC based Macs... It's not an issue of not being powerful enough, it's an issue of concentrating on current and future hardware. I applaud them for that... It gives me one more reason to retire this G5 quad I have.
 
Thanks, and dissappointment

Thanks, and dissappointment

First, a heart felt thanks to all who have been spending their time on here trying to help me find a direction to go in. It's clear from reading the various posts (And this is troubleing) that there is not a lot of hardware info coming from the top down. Many of you are spending time, and dare I say, MONEY? trying to find what makes this software work best.

I was excited to see a true expect on the matter, Luki, hop on here and post, imagine my dissappointment to find his only reason to come in was not to help, but to correct someone on a bad assumption concerning Scratch.. Luki? That was very sad.. Perhaps he has answered this question in another post and I have missed it, if someone knows where that is, please let me know.

It seems from what I can read that a 8 core PC will do fine. As for what I am using the system for, here it is in the order of importance:

1: REDCine (Render to Quicktime using Cineform 4k or 2k)
2: Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 (Using Cineform as well)
3: Adobe After Effects
4: Color Finesse 2.0 (Very excited about this program, will use After Effects until I can afford it)
5: NewTek Lightwave (Yes I do use Lightwave, but I don't want to base a lot of hardware choices on it if it has any kind of negative impact on REDCine)
6: Porn (Kidding) :)


Ok so there you are. I will NOT build this system until AFTER I get my camera. I am 327 so I am expecting late Jan. I liked Zeke's system but would have to check pricing.

Jeff, Kmuse, etc.. You guys are trying really hard and I love the passion. Jeff it sounds like the 8800 may have trouble where Adobe Premiere is concerned. I need to nail this down.

Right now I am hearing two things: 8800 or in that area.. And there is talk of an SLI mode.

I am also hearing that at some point the GPU will cease to be the "weak link" in the chain. I am also hearing that if you are doing well, the best you can hope for is about .91 sec per frame.... So this hurts.. No doubt about it. Personally I would like to render from a 4k master with minimal color work to a 1080p Quicktime/Cineform file in the order of 1min per hour. 2 min per hour would rule.

I am still not really sure of what to do at this point, but perhaps you can answer me this:

If we are rendering files, and the rate is .91 seconds per frame, why is there a worry about overloading the write speed of the hard drive?

Also, I will rarely go beyond 1080p for my output. I MAY go 4k for a short clip for the purpose of special effects if nessesary.. But it's doubtful.

Thanks again

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
...I am also hearing that if you are doing well, the best you can hope for is about .91 sec per frame.... So this hurts.. No doubt about it...
Click to expand...

Hey Jay,

The .91 seconds / frame was my quotation from a fairly modest machine for extracting a 1080p DNxHD QT from a 4k .r3d file. I would hope that higher performance machines would exceed this level of performance, but as of yet, we don't have a standardized test nor reports back from others that define their throughput from other hardware platforms. I intend to do more testing and will share my findings and would love to learn what others are experiencing.

Kevin
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
2: Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 (Using Cineform as well)


Jay
Click to expand...


You will want check with David Newman from Cineform over at dvinfo forums to make sure which card will work with Prospect HD, which uses hardware overlays. A few months back there was a long thread regarding geforce 8 series, with many owners of that card opting to exchange for 7 series.

cheers,

john t.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
1: REDCine (Render to Quicktime using Cineform 4k or 2k)
2: Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 (Using Cineform as well)
3: Adobe After Effects
4: Color Finesse 2.0 (Very excited about this program, will use After Effects until I can afford it)
5: NewTek Lightwave (Yes I do use Lightwave, but I don't want to base a lot of hardware choices on it if it has any kind of negative impact on REDCine)
6: Porn (Kidding) :)
Click to expand...

Jay, I think you're on the right track... Do as John says and check if the overlay problem is going to be an issue for you. If it is, go with the GeForce 7800GTX or something similar. Saves you some money and is still very good. I'd like to recommend an SLI configuration, but you don't really have any software listed that will benefit.

You still have a few weeks until you need a new system, I would recommend going for the new 45nm Intel CPUs. Waiting until your camera is out should give enough time for those new CPUs and chipsets to be tested on the open market. As of now, there are some stability concerns.

As for your software list...

1: Any current nVidia GPU is going to be fine. Perhaps REDCINE will make better use of more powerful GPU functions in the future.

2 & 3: Not GPU dependent. Some motion effects can be GPU accelerated, IIRC, but your consideration here should be if the overlay issue is going to affect you or not.

4: I've never used Color Finesse, can't comment...

5: Don't get me started ranting on NewTek and their inability to make decent use of OpenGL. But as a long-time Lightwaver, I'll just say that any modern GeForce card works great. Quadro or FireGL cards are extra money wasted on this application. Too bad, really...

6: It's OK, you can admit this is really #1.

From the looks of your list, I would recommend the best GeForce series card you want to pay for. As long as the overlay issue isn't going to be a problem. But I guess that's what I've been saying...
 
flameop said:
So whats the fastest processors out there at the moment ? Is it worth waiting ?
Are there certain cases you guys go for ? so many around.. neon lights etc :-
Are there any that have internal raid bays ?
Cheers

Si
Click to expand...

Fastest depends on how much overclocking your motherboard supports and how much cooling you want to have. i've OC'ed a quad 2.4GHz to ~3GHz, with stock cpu cooler, i pushed it to 3.3GHz but it was slightly unstable. also have big hi-perf HP case fans hot wired to the PWM of the cpu fan, so if the cpu gets hot the fan crank up.

absolute stock, out of the box, balls to the wall fastest would be that intel QX9650. if you can find a motherboard that supports two of these cpus and you can overclock and add some watercooling you would have about the fastest system outside of that monster that does the nuclear blast simulations. your issues would be getting Ram to run at 1333MHz++.

i wouldn't buy a 1333MHz system because of the ram issue. it's a waste to have a massive FSB that the Ram can't support, if your solution space fits inside the cache of the CPU then you're sweet. why i have the kingston X, i can OC it.

the server boards have the edge in that you can throw more cpus on the motherboard but most do not have a PCIE x16 slot, they have lame onboard VGA video and most do not support hi-performance Ram. they use the expensive ECC flavor with slower clocks and no overclocking ability.

for raid i would throw in a 3Ware sata controller, fastest on the planet, i've had two a PCI version and PCI-X, screamers. you don't need much of a raid bay these days with 4x750GB sata in raid 0,5,or 6, you'll have more data and speed then you'll need

cases, most are a waste of space these days. if you want something not going to move too often get an HP server case, bullet proof power supplies, great air flow, built like a tank but tool-less for mods. forget about all of the lights and LED bullshit. priorities, 1. stable and clean power supply >650W and 2. airflow. there are some great heatpipe coolers around that support up to 130W, check out thermalright U120. dump the idea of floppy drive and permanent CD/DVD. with current USB sticks you can boot to XP or linux.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Alexander I think Khmuse is planning on sending a frame to each render node which would require a 1.2MB network ... stuff deleted... We looked into building it ourself and the difference between our homebuilt option and the Avid solution with 'seemingly' the exact same setup was night and day. The home built introduced an enormous amount of latency in consecutive calls. It did very well in big bursts but very poorly in frame hosting.
Click to expand...

when we did our processing we had to tune the network packets and protocols, UDP sound familiar, far less collisions and dropped packets. we also had a "atomic clock" running sync for timestamping. these days with the 'jumbo' packets, intel's offloading, and boot strapping, i'm surprised that still an issue. Avid must do similar with tuned drivers.

my simple homebuilt rig today, i pull hard on the adsl connection 18hr x 7day (internet providers throttles me during the day ha ha), @1350kb/s, but i've tuned the OS and drivers. i will hit the bus limit before the NIC.
 
khmuse said:
Hey Jay,

stuff deleted....


, we don't have a standardized test nor reports back from others that define their throughput from other hardware platforms. I intend to do more testing and will share my findings and would love to learn what others are experiencing.

Kevin
Click to expand...

why don't you throw IOmeter at it and see what the benchmarks are? my .02
 
galexander said:
Fastest depends on how much overclocking your motherboard supports and how much cooling you want to have. i've OC'ed a quad 2.4GHz to ~3GHz, with stock cpu cooler, i pushed it to 3.3GHz but it was slightly unstable. also have big hi-perf HP case fans hot wired to the PWM of the cpu fan, so if the cpu gets hot the fan crank up.

absolute stock, out of the box, balls to the wall fastest would be that intel QX9650. if you can find a motherboard that supports two of these cpus and you can overclock and add some watercooling you would have about the fastest system outside of that monster that does the nuclear blast simulations. your issues would be getting Ram to run at 1333MHz++.

i wouldn't buy a 1333MHz system because of the ram issue. it's a waste to have a massive FSB that the Ram can't support, if your solution space fits inside the cache of the CPU then you're sweet. why i have the kingston X, i can OC it.

the server boards have the edge in that you can throw more cpus on the motherboard but most do not have a PCIE x16 slot, they have lame onboard VGA video and most do not support hi-performance Ram. they use the expensive ECC flavor with slower clocks and no overclocking ability.

for raid i would throw in a 3Ware sata controller, fastest on the planet, i've had two a PCI version and PCI-X, screamers. you don't need much of a raid bay these days with 4x750GB sata in raid 0,5,or 6, you'll have more data and speed then you'll need

cases, most are a waste of space these days. if you want something not going to move too often get an HP server case, bullet proof power supplies, great air flow, built like a tank but tool-less for mods. forget about all of the lights and LED bullshit. priorities, 1. stable and clean power supply >650W and 2. airflow. there are some great heatpipe coolers around that support up to 130W, check out thermalright U120. dump the idea of floppy drive and permanent CD/DVD. with current USB sticks you can boot to XP or linux.
Click to expand...

galexander

This is good stuff. What is your favorite 8-core motherboard at the moment? Best "Bang for your buck" in your opinion - just crunching REDCODE from REDCINE - not running any other apps at all?
 
khmuse said:
Hey umeric,

Could you supply a bit of information as to the performance that you achieved? Specifically, could you define a specific .r3d file, the settings you used in RedCine and the performance (frame rate processed per unit time) from that same system? While "...runs great..." gives a hint, it would be very helpful to have some high end bench marks to compare against.

Thanks!

Kevin Halverson
Click to expand...

Sure - away fom the studio for the next few days though - I'll get on to it when im back...
 
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