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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Build 9 (1.5.0) first impressions

Greg M

Greg M

Digital FX
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This is a major update, thanks!

Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)
Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion.

The new waveforms are a great addition as well and the new improved Focus Assist looks like a major improvement, but I dont understand exactly how it works. Is there any documentation on Focus Assist yet?


There are several other additions I havent played with yet, but overall this a major update...Thanks again!

BTW- no new formats in this build.
 
digitalfx said:
This is a major update, thanks!

Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)
Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion.

The new waveforms are a great addition as well and the new improved Focus Assist looks like a major improvement, but I dont understand exactly how it works. Is there any documentation on Focus Assist yet?


There are several other additions I havent played with yet, but overall this a major update...Thanks again!

BTW- no new formats in this build.
Click to expand...

Can you post a preview of the focus assist or is it still under wraps?
 
digitalfx said:
...Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion...
Click to expand...

I had a similar suggestion in another thread a little while back:

"Animated Thumbnails", incase the thumbnail is black or they are difficult to distinguish from each other.

Here is the original post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=103477&postcount=8

RED Team, is this possible?
 
If I may, I will do my best to describe the focus assist. I think it will, like many other things RED, revolutionize the way we consider focus. Yes. A measuring tape is fine, shooting a laser out the lens is fine, but here is why I think that the Magic focus assist will be rapidly adopted as a tool.

The focus assist does a pixel analysis on the image data information. It determines which pixels in the frame are in the sharpest focus. In other words it is telling you which exact pixels in the image are the most sharp.

Then what it does is it represents these pixels by drawing a spike at the bottom of the screen that shoots up to show you where in the frame the sharpest pixels are. This means that if an actor were to walk through the focal range you would see the in focus spike move with the most in focus pixels.

Think of it as a histogram just for focus. If I am wrong about any of this then I am sure Graeme will correct me, but imagine being able to not only see what is in focus but to understand that the sharpest pixels in the frame are being represented with the focus assist.

Just think of the implications for green screen work. If the eyes are in focus then then spikes at the bottom of the frame will be directly below the eyes, etc.

To top it off I believe it is basing this on the 4K data and not the down converted monitoring, so it can't get anymore razor sharp then that. It also means that focus pullers can look at the histogram (and monitor) instead of the lens to assure great "spot on" focus.

Very very cool. Well done for coming up with this Graeme.

David
 
digitalfx said:
Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)
Click to expand...
Of course, I'm hoping you are joking about the cost part. I see a smiley there, so I will assume so. Had me panicked for a half a second or so.

Steve
 
battistella said:
Think of it as a histogram just for focus. If I am wrong about any of this then I am sure Graeme will correct me, but imagine being able to not only see what is in focus but to understand that the sharpest pixels in the frame are being represented with the focus assist.

Just think of the implications for green screen work. If the eyes are in focus then then spikes at the bottom of the frame will be directly below the eyes, etc.
Click to expand...

The magic focus sounds interesting, but if this is how it works, then I think there are plenty of situations where it can give a misleading reading. Using your example of the closeup of a person's face - if the person has his hands under his chin, but slightly in front of the face, the focus may give a bigger spike if the focus is on the hands (because the hands are bigger than the eyes). Also, the spike may be right under the eyes, so you might think eyes are in focus, when they're not.

Since the picture is 2-dimensional, it may be a good idea to put another graph on the vertical axis. Or better yet, just put a colored border around the pixels that are in focus. Maybe use a few different colors for different levels of focus. Just my .02.
 
Sumfun said:
Or better yet, just put a colored border around the pixels that are in focus.
Click to expand...

That's where I think it needs to end up. The vertical only thing bothers me - but I haven't used it so maybe it'll be fine. Sony's got a new focus assist coming out with the EX CAM - or so I've heard. Have to see how well it works.
 
Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.

Just as a waveform monitor is on one axis only, it gives it's own view of the image that needs to be interpreted, focus graph is similar. It's another tool, a good tool, but as you get more practised, you'll get better results with it.

Graeme
 
Does the focus assist also work on playback? That would be great for trying to check existing takes for critical focus...
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.
Click to expand...

A colored border may oscure the image, but if it is accurate, then one could argue that you don't need to see the image (or at least the part that is obscured). Of course, you could make it better by making the border semi-transparent, or using dotted lines or brackets or false color.

Regarding the degree of focus, how many times have you asked yourself if a certain point is 80 or 90% in focus? Probably never. You want to know if it's 100% in focus. Granted, the area 100% in focus may be too small to see (or non-existant) sometimes, so maybe you can have a user-selectable threshold, much like you can set thresholds for zebra.

Graeme Nattress said:
Just as a waveform monitor is on one axis only, it gives it's own view of the image that needs to be interpreted, focus graph is similar. It's another tool, a good tool, but as you get more practised, you'll get better results with it.

Graeme
Click to expand...

I agree that the focus assist is a useful tool as is. Like all tools, it has its advantages and disadvantages, and the user needs to have practice to use it well. But it's not often that you get to talk directly to the designer, so I'm just putting in a few suggestions on how I would improve it. Cheers.
 
Focus Assist

Focus Assist

Jim Arthurs said:
Does the focus assist also work on playback? That would be great for trying to check existing takes for critical focus...
Click to expand...

Yes Focus Assist does (or more accurately, it can) work in Playback. As will Luma Waveform or RGB Histogram. It depends on which one of these three you have sleected as your METER choice and if you have enabled the METER view.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.
Click to expand...

First, I really appreciate that you're including this function at all.

But this argument doesn't make sense to me.

The focus assist is so we don't have to rely on a 720P monitor to try to figure out what's in focus. If it's accurate I don't need to double check so I don't care if the edges are outlined. There is very little obscuring going on.
http://www.videokamery.cz/obrazky/9-hd100-B.jpg

If you're really tight on a person with the JVC you can paint the glasses frame apart from the pupil and rack between them.

I think a combination of the histogram plus JVC style and/or peaking might be good enough. Does RED have peaking yet?

I've never been clear on why I need to know how much things are out of focus. I just want to know what's in focus. Everything else is going to fall where it may. (OK it could help when I want a very precisely tuned DOF range and I'm not sure what aperture I need)
 
Stuart English said:
......As will Luma Waveform or RGB Histogram. ......
Click to expand...

Cool, so there is also a Luma waveform now ? :waaa:
I thought there would only be a RGB histogram.
How big is the Luma waveform ? Can you switch to full screen overlay mode if you need to check it more precisely ?
And what about a vectorscope ? :innocent:
 
All I would need is a button to go to 100% of a small area of the center of the sensor to confirm focus or set marks. Panasonic does this on the little HVX and it works well as a substitute for an optical viewfinder. Wouldn't that be a simple solution?
 
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