Build 20, RedAlert and Apple Color (color science question)

[Eric Haase]

Hi all,

Playing around with Build 20 today. I've been reading about the reduction in noise with Build 20 and tested 17 vs 20 today in low lighting situations. When rendering out of RedAlert I see a noticeable difference in the low light noise.

If I open the R3D files directly in Apple's Color application, should I see a difference in noise in low light? That is, does Build 20 do something on the camera level to reduce the noise and build this into the R3D data, or is the new color science only seen when RedAlert, RedCine, or RedRushes are used?

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Eric

 

[Andrew Wilding]

The old color did not use the build 20 color science - you would need to use red alert to take advantage of the reduced noise and other improvements. As for Color 1.5, Im not sure. It says that it "supports" cameras up to build 20, but what does "support" mean? Does it actually use the new color science? Im really curious about this myself, and haven't found a definitive answer yet.

 

[Eric Haase]

This seems pretty important. RedAlert/RedRushes/RedCine are great for making dailies and what not but in our workflow we are finishing with R3Ds in Color and rendering out Uncompressed 10 bit for broadcast. Are we getting any advantage in terms of new color science when shooting with Build 20 camera firmware and employing this workflow? Can someone from RED or anyone with knowledge on this subject address if Color uses the new color science in any way when footage is shot on Build 20? Or does it just access the REDCODE QT codec which is still older color science?

 

[Joe G.]

I would ask the same thing about Adobe CS4. Does it use the "new Color Science" or doesn't it?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Adobe CS4 does not currently use the new color science. The Adobe installer predates that, hopefully we'll see an update real soon.

Apple Color does not appear to use the new color science either. Or at least I'm not seeing the shift in white balance and the better noise handling.

Build 20 doesn't change the way the camera records the data -- it's still RAW sensor data. All the new color science is contained within the post software. Build 20 does make changes to the monitoring to better represent the new color matrix. I think that other than the RED tools, the only other software out there with support for the new color science is ClipFinder. ...Once again, hoping this all changes real soon.

 

[David Battistella]

This is the way I understand it.

The RED tab in COLOR give you a whole slew of parameters for manipulating the RED footage. You can affect ISO, exposure, color, etc.

Color is opening the R3D file inside the application. This would mean that it is accessing the NEW color science when it opens the R3D file.

If you open a shot at switch between the the REDSPACE, REC 709, and CAMERA RGB you can easily see that it is displaying the NEW color science as the REC 709 is a very pleasing picture compared to before (the old version of color)

You could argue that COLOR is only using the proxie file to look at the r3d through the QT architecture on the MAC. If this is the case then you are actually seeing teh NEW color science because if you were playing it through the desktop then you would see it there as well.

The RED color science is seen through R3D apps (like RA nad RC and it is also seen through QT as well.

So I would make an educated guess that it is using the new science. If it was not, then what color science would it be referencing?

It's a combo of RED R3D and QT.

David

 

[Eric Haase]

Build 20 doesn't change the way the camera records the data -- it's still RAW sensor data. All the new color science is contained within the post software. Build 20 does make changes to the monitoring to better represent the new color matrix. I think that other than the RED tools, the only other software out there with support for the new color science is ClipFinder. ...Once again, hoping this all changes real soon.

Color is opening the R3D file inside the application. This would mean that it is accessing the NEW color science when it opens the R3D file.

The RED color science is seen through R3D apps (like RA nad RC and it is also seen through QT as well.

So I would make an educated guess that it is using the new science. If it was not, then what color science would it be referencing?

It's a combo of RED R3D and QT.

David

2 differing opinions here. I suspect that when Color accesses the R3D files it is doing so via the REDCODE QT plugin, which has not been updated to use the new color science. I believe this is the reason others have stated as to why the proxies do not look like the images in REDALERT and a white balance adjustment must be made for them. I don't believe that Color uses the new color science (yet). I'll be glad when it does. Can anyone from RED confirm these notions? Thanks in advance.