BS - How does your cold boot look?

[Thierry Lacombe]

Lens cap on. Black shaded then 30 min shut down. 12800 ISO.

Above is Epic MX, below is Dragon.

 

[Philip Lanyon]

I saw this same thing at NAB on a demo camera. Some may debate never turning your camera up that high but you have to think that the unevenness must be effecting the image at some level.

 

[John Marchant]

Temp indicator will have been squarely in the red. The camera needs to warm up to operating temp (ie the same reliable temp you black shaded at). Watch the screen at high ISO from cold and you'll see it fade in a matter of minutes.

 

[Mike P.]

I noticed the exact same thing on a Dragon I tested with recently. And the pink/green pattern noise was visible in the dark areas at ISO2000 not ISO12800.

John, are you saying that it was simply a matter of the camera not being up to operating temp? The indicators (T/E) were green; I specifically looked. It was running for ~5mins before I started shading, and then an additional 25mins while I was doing testing (stayed green the entire time.)

 

[John Marchant]

5 mins to warm up before black shade isn't enough. The cam should feel warm through before you black shade IMHO.

Proper black shade and a warmed up camera and you won't see this.

the only time the T/E will be green, the cam hot, and you still see this , is if you're running the factory cal- and I've seen people black shade and then end up selecting the factory calibration, hence ignoring the user calibration they JUST did... So there are a few ways this can go wrong, but if you run the camera a good while before you BS and a good while before you roll camera at high ISO, it should never be an issue

 

[Mike P.]

That's pretty much what I was worried I did wrong (accidentally selected factory cal AFTER doing the userHS), but I didn't realize the footage was the way it was until I brought it into RCXp at the end of the day... Frustrating. I know 5mins isn't enough warm up time, but figured the T being green meant the temp was stable, so figured it should be alright.

 

[Daniel Frick]

Hello,

I know it's been a while since this thread was created, but I'm wondering if you've had any further insight into this issue as I've experienced the same. Blackshading does fix the issue for the most part once the Dragon is up to "green" operating temperature for the calibrated exposure, but it continues to worry me as it's something I've never experienced on a RED product (M, M-X, or any other camera) before.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Steve Freebairn]

The Green T/E has nothing to do with if your camera temp is stabilized. It shows how your camera temp and exposure (shutter) are in relationship to the currently selected blackshading.

Make sure your fan is set to adaptive and the target temp is 65 (default in the latest firmware) . Then roll an entire mag, sometimes I'll do it at highspeed, just to warm the camera up as much as possible. Once the camera is warm/hot (65C) then set your shutter at your desired shooting shutter (usually 180 or 172.8) and blackshade the camera. You can now store up to 4 blackshades in the camera. I'd do one at 180 and then as close to your shooting settings for your shutter as possible. The further you move from your blackshade (in shutter, since the camera will now always stay at 65C) the more important it would be to consider a blackshade. As the T/E turn yellow, it's a warning that your not at your optimal settings compared to your blackshade, if it turns red, then I'd do a blackshade unless you absolutely can't.


Also, consistency of the noise at 12800 is more important than whether there is noise or not, a bad blackshading will be evident with one side of the image being more purple/uneven from side to side, not in the fact that there is noise.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Sick of with this Blackshading tweaks on Red cameras.Why we need to take our precious time with this nonsense tech? Cant they just do it like proper camera? (alexa) roll a mag to heat camera? why on earth any camera requires that?
Maybe with firmware upgrade they can eliminate this ?
( not trying to bash my camera just want to read reason behind this with some technical aspect)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I have to admit to be curious... how is this type of calibration handled in Alexa? Or, is there some way it is not needed. Just asking for personal edification; not looking to start a bashing session.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Lens cap on. Black shaded then 30 min shut down. 12800 ISO.

Above is Epic MX, below is Dragon.

The good news is that the Dragon gets much faster on temp as the MX, in a 24C° room it's in less than two minutes. It seems there is a heater next to the sensor.

Pat

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't know that I would call that "good news" more like "Not quite as bad news as it would be otherwise". Dragon introduced a problem, and also introduced a solution to mitigate it.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Seriously there is alot of BS when it comes to black shading. Its really simple and easy and has been said a hundred times. Preferably use Adaptive fan setting at 65c then make sure the camera has warmed up and do your black shade. Then do a few others at shutter speeds that you often use. DONE. Maybe repeat the process every summer and winter. Also use common sense and dont do this process in your over heated apartment when you plan to shoot exteriors at -5c.

In the morning just turn your camera on first and usually in just a few minutes the camera will be all good and if you go off speed select the appropiate calibration map. BUT assuming you have a good exposure and the T/E indicators go yellow don't panic. Your pictures will not look crap and this slightly non optimal state has negligible effect on the image. Yellow is more a "heads up" but if it turns red you should take appropiate action but I have also rolled while T/E is red and have captured perfectly good images.

If you are shooting at a high ISO and are under exposing I would take more care with the T/E indicators.

If you read the original post it was a cold reboot with the camera set at 12800asa. So of course its noisier and the comparison with the MX chip in the same situation is not valid as the unique design of the Dragon chip is such that it operates best at higher temperatures and that is why it has small heaters built in to bring it up to speed quickly.

 

[Nawaf Alsabhan]

Lens cap on. Black shaded then 30 min shut down. 12800 ISO.

Above is Epic MX, below is Dragon.

It's been highly recommended before not to film until the temperature and exposure turns to green (T/E), you'll start seeing that red pinkish noise on the left disappear when the sensor heats up and rises up to temperature.

It also depends on your OLPF for filming with high ISO's, Low Light OLPF will give you cleaner blacks, and you can film from ISO 320 to 2000, Skin Tone Highlight OLPF will give you better skin tone, and better protection in the highlights (gives a nice curve for overblown highlights). ISO 320 is preferred for Skin tone OLPF.

 

[Daniel Frick]

I think as per my specific concern, I wanted to get an idea of whether or not the pink noise pattern during warm up is an issue that's, A) happening to most of our Dragons, and, if so, B) within normal and proper operation of the camera. Or do I have to worry that in time, specifically the minute my warranty runs out, this is an issue that will escalate to something seriously problematic. And I feel like maybe this peace of mind is what the original poster was also looking for.

Blackshading to remove such an issue once the camera has fully reached its optimal temperature is fine, I understand its purpose and with as high end a piece of equipment as Dragon, we're given much more power and technical responsibility - INSERT SPIDERMAN QUOTE HERE - as operators than, say, a prosumer handycam where many things are hidden from us behind the veil. I think that's the beauty of shooting with RED.

I have come across other instances of this reported on the forums, but everything is scattered and unresolved (as far as I can tell, I wasn't able to catch EVERY incarnation of this topic). "Unresolved" meaning, there has not been a majority saying, "this is normal, it's simply how Dragon works - the pink noise problem will NOT affect your image after proper blackshading and warm up (emphasis on PROPER)." That, rather than assuming it's a band-aid solution to a technical problem.

The support ticket I had opened gave me a response (due to the corporate disclaimer on the bottom of RED emails I will only VERY roughly paraphrase) that supports the conclusion that a PROPER blackshading, which has a well-documented set of instructions (RED's documentation or Phil Holland's and elsewhere on the forums), makes this a non-issue and should not affect a properly exposed image. At least in my specific situation that was reported to support.

Anyhoo, maybe the more of us saying "we have the 'pink fixed noise pattern' during warm up, but it goes away after proper blackshading, all seems to be well" will help calm our fears... because I know I'd like to just continue using this awesome camera without this on my mind, but I don't have anyone in-person to compare it to.

- Dan

 

[Thomas Koch]

Seriously there is alot of BS when it comes to black shading. Its really simple and easy and has been said a hundred times. Preferably use Adaptive fan setting at 65c then make sure the camera has warmed up and do your black shade. Then do a few others at shutter speeds that you often use. DONE. Maybe repeat the process every summer and winter. Also use common sense and dont do this process in your over heated apartment when you plan to shoot exteriors at -5c.

In the morning just turn your camera on first and usually in just a few minutes the camera will be all good and if you go off speed select the appropiate calibration map. BUT assuming you have a good exposure and the T/E indicators go yellow don't panic. Your pictures will not look crap and this slightly non optimal state has negligible effect on the image. Yellow is more a "heads up" but if it turns red you should take appropiate action but I have also rolled while T/E is red and have captured perfectly good images.

If you are shooting at a high ISO and are under exposing I would take more care with the T/E indicators.

If you read the original post it was a cold reboot with the camera set at 12800asa. So of course its noisier and the comparison with the MX chip in the same situation is not valid as the unique design of the Dragon chip is such that it operates best at higher temperatures and that is why it has small heaters built in to bring it up to speed quickly.

This has been my experience as well. I had a shoot where, we kept black shading an MX (my MX) to the default camera setting and it wasn't sticking. Red TE for a lot of the shoot. Did one on the User setting and everything was fine. User Error on my part. A little neat video and the shots cut easily with the rest.

But, As long as you black shade with a camera at the temp you will shoot, it's quite easy.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Anyhoo, maybe the more of us saying "we have the 'pink fixed noise pattern' during warm up, but it goes away after proper blackshading, all seems to be well" will help calm our fears... because I know I'd like to just continue using this awesome camera without this on my mind, but I don't have anyone in-person to compare it to.

- Dan

This is normal on the Dragon. Don't be afraid.
Pat