Broadcast Workflow

[Michael U]

Wondering how editors are handling broadcast delivery specs and workflow, namely 1080i 29.97, from their 23.976 Red footage. I am using Premiere CC but question should apply to other editing systems as well.

- 5K 23.976 footage/ to R3D 23.976 1080p timeline/ export using MPEG2 or ProRes 1080i 29.97 for broadcast

OR

- 5K 23.976 footage/to R3D 5K 23.976 timeline/ export using MPEG2 or ProRes 1080i 29.97 for broadcast

OR

other ideas??

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would ask the distributor what file format they prefer, what specific specs they have for audio and video levels, blanking, titles, and so on. 1080i 29.97 dropframe is very typical for final delivery for network, but there's a lot of "it depends" answers involved. I have no problem finishing a project in 23.98 and then converting to 1080i as a final step. ProRes 444 is pretty widely accepted, but there are some exceptions.

 

[Michael U]

Thanks Marc. In most cases there is no one distributor as these often go out to 4 or 5 different local TV networks. All ask for a slightly different spec (MPEG 2, ProRes, H264) but all require 1080i 29.97. We prefer to shoot in 23.98 but wonder whether certain workflow steps produce better results than others. If we edit in a 1080p 23.98 timeline does Premiere do the best job on the pulldown to 29.97 when we export? I have heard some editors suggesting After Effects might do a better job on the pulldown.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Nick Morrison]

All my clients are broadcast (think major Cable networks), and our deliverables are starting to change, quickly.

Only 12 months ago, we shot 23.98 on RED, and delivered 29.97 Quicktimes (DNX or Prores). That was the norm.

However, networks are adjusting quickly to the needs of dominant internet platforms, namely Itunes and Amazon, who are now starting to REJECT interlaced deliverables and any interpolated frames, etc. As these portals generate massive revenue, their needs are being met, almost immediately. The last 12 months have seen a massive sea change in how we deliver.

The new workflow NOW is for production companies to deliver "NATIVE FRAME RATE". IE...deliver quicktimes in whatever frame rate the masters were originally shot in. So if you shot 23.98 5K masters, then deliver 23.98 Prores/DNX 1080p Quicktimes. They don't want any frame interpolations or conversions. They want 1080 transcodes to stay frame rate NATIVE.

For air, my clients bring these 23.98 master clips into 1080i projects, and Avid plays them down seamlessly, and can lay them to tape as well.

And then for 23.98 delivery, they open up the same sequence in a 23.98 "native" project, and Avid now plays down the clips in their original frame rate, and can export sequences "natively" w/out any interpolations or field issues. That way all Itunes and Amazon deliverables are naturally progressive, and devoid of any field headaches.

Itunes and other web based platforms are known to check deliverables frame by frame. Their demanding standards are what led to this massive rethink about delivery and frame rates over past year. Same for Cinema delivery. A lot of our tv "trailers" are also shown in cinemas, and same thing is happening there. Before our theatrical vendors were happy to accept interlaced deliverables. But no longer. Needs to all be progressive 1080p. Essentially, NATIVE FRAME RATE.

Hope this helps.

Also - for whatever it's worth, I'd say about 90% of all content on TV is shot 23.98. At least almost everything I see is, whether it's reality or scripted. Most of them deliver 23.98 MASTERS, and then 1080i conversions that are strictly for air.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Also - for whatever it's worth, I'd say about 90% of all content on TV is shot 23.98. At least almost everything I see is, whether it's reality or scripted. Most of them deliver 23.98 MASTERS, and then 1080i conversions that are strictly for air.

Scripted, yes. But all the American reality projects I see are shot 29.97, and that would include Survivor, Great Race, The Bachelor, Real Housewives, Top Chef, and every competition show like American Idol, The Voice, Dancing with the Stars, and all that stuff. I can't recall a reality show shot and aired at 23.98. I think there's a huge difference between the look of 30fps and 24fps, and I think documentary-style projects actually look better when shot at 30 (29.97). I do agree that the unwanted 2:3 field artifacts of a 23.98 -> 29.97 conversion aren't good to watch, plus it's a huge waste of space in terms of data.

It's no trouble to take a 23.98 show and finish it both ways, as a 23.98 master and a 29.97 air master for delivery. The former is almost always used for home video anyway, and it's been done this way for 13 years that I know of.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Scripted, yes. But all the American reality projects I see are shot 29.97, and that would include Survivor, Great Race, The Bachelor, Real Housewives, Top Chef, and every competition show like American Idol, The Voice, Dancing with the Stars, and all that stuff. I can't recall a reality show shot and aired at 23.98. I think there's a huge difference between the look of 30fps and 24fps, and I think documentary-style projects actually look better when shot at 30 (29.97). I do agree that the unwanted 2:3 field artifacts of a 23.98 -> 29.97 conversion aren't good to watch, plus it's a huge waste of space in terms of data.

It's no trouble to take a 23.98 show and finish it both ways, as a 23.98 master and a 29.97 air master for delivery. The former is almost always used for home video anyway, and it's been done this way for 13 years that I know of.

Hmmm...I guess I'm my neck of the woods it may be different. Project Runway when I did all the promos a couple of seasons back...was shot 23.98. Other reality series I've worked on at AETN have also been 23.98. I suppose it's more of a mixed bag than I imagined! I have no experience with the major broadcasters, so interesting to hear your feedback Marc, thanks!

 

[Marc Wielage]

Not a problem. I've worked on four different reality shows, and was appalled when several of them not only shot at 29.97, they used dropframe rec run timecode and shot on tape! And this was in the last three years, so it's fairly recent. To me, it makes much more sense to shoot at 23.98 time-of-day, but that's me.

I notice there are shows that sometimes mix 23.98 and 29.97; in some cases, I think Biggest Loser has done 29.97 for the main show, then 23.98 for the documentaries that follow contestants back to their home town. American Idol has done this as well. I think it's dicey doing this, but it can work, particularly if you're trying to create a whole different look for the side-stories vs. the main action.

It's interesting that the hugely-successful British shows airing on PBS, like Sherlock and Downton Abbey, are still shot at 25fps and converted to 29.97. They have a third look slightly different from 24fps and 30fps, but I'd argue it looks a little more "cinematic" and less video-ish than the latter. And yet not as film-like as 23.98.

 

[Nick Morrison]

It's interesting that the hugely-successful British shows airing on PBS, like Sherlock and Downton Abbey, are still shot at 25fps and converted to 29.97. They have a third look slightly different from 24fps and 30fps, but I'd argue it looks a little more "cinematic" and less video-ish than the latter. And yet not as film-like as 23.98.

Funny you say that. We were watching Sherlock recently, and I did think it looked a little "video" but couldn't put my finger on it...I'm sure its more than just the frame rate, but you're probably right...it's not doing them any favors either...

 

[Ben Scott]

I don't think all the silly motion graphics whizzing all over the place helps it in that regar.