Bomb EVF Shipping

[Thomas Koch]

No matter how much I want one (ordered Dec 2010) I'm glad Gibby has one and is using it to create some amazing images. I also appreciate how much he gives to the REDUSER and RED and movie making community in general.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Shane! It was hard work, long hours, and little sleep - but that's the way we like it

The Bomb EVF performed excellent. We had it in temperatures down to about 15 degrees Fahrenheit - and it never skipped a beat.

BTW - I've worked in OZ several times. Its been too long since my last trip there. When I'm headed that way I'll give you a shout. It would be great to personally meet members of the Red OZ family

Good on ya Mate :thumbup1:

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Thomas...I appreciate that. Our work takes us traveling widely, and frequently into your N. Calif area. If we know we'll be coming to your area, we'd be happy meet you, and show you the Bomb EVF, if you don't already have yours by then.

Cheers...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

warning... quoting off-topic about 30 pages back:

Gracias Jarred we have now more light about the status, for me this little info is very important.

Check this images whit the great RPP (RED ONE'S & PHANTOM MIX)

www.vimeo.com/14981802

WOW... fantastic job. Great choice for the RPPs. I think the Newtonian rings were very fitting along with the marked use of I am guessing were gold bounces and other kinds of reflectors. Lovely imagery.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

<big snip>

Yes, Red is very democratic about their pricing – but they’re also very democratic about the sequence of their delivery schedule – those who were in earliest get resultant consideration for each successive product – and in all fairness it should be that way. Unfortunately some who adopted Red products later feel a sense of resentment toward those who for whatever reason were able to get in early. They seem to feel a sense of entitlement that should place them even with those who came in early, and have supported this community heavily – and that’s not really very democratic now is it?

I'm somewhat nervously going to stick my oar in here, and hope I don't get my nose bitten off for my pains.

I'm new here, and I've just placed my first orders for RED gear. But I've been aware of RED from the early days; when the first camera was a bunch of renderings. I took note. As the project moved towards production I took more note, and decided we should buy. Not the camera, the company; my wife is a Wall St. fund manager and likes me to keep a lookout for interesting tech companies. Concerning RED I said to her: "These guys are revolutionaries. Game Changers. They're going to wipe the floor with everyone in their business. And this is Jim Jannard; it's for real - buy a piece of them!" Then discovered it was all privately held. I believe I've told this story before... ho hum. At that time I had no need nor use for a Red One, although my Inner Geek was seriously tempted anyway.

A few years later and things have changed, and here we are, I'm buying. I'm in the market for a Scarlet or two. Or possibly an EPIC-S. Maybe even an EPIC-X if I think it can earn its keep through rental when I'm not using it. And I find I'm hearing about stage this, stage that... it's like you have to wait in line to get on another line to place a deposit for some 'stage x' deal to be able to eventually think about getting some product. When I described a similar procedure at the DMV to a friend, he said 'waiting in line to get on the line for another line - that's exactly how it worked in the Soviet Union!' And he should know, he lived there...

Now I know we're on the cutting edge here, but I'm not used to doing business this way. I expect to cut a check and get a camera, no messing around. It's NOT a matter of 'entitlement' or 'resentment', it's just - to me - not a very satisfactory way of doing business. Not something I'm used to.

Don't get me wrong. What you guys are doing is amazing, and the price points you're doing it at are extraordinary. This place alone is astonishing; where else can you get on a forum and interact with the people who design and build your gear like this? And get answers from them! But I think information on the ordering process and delivery schedule needs to be better presented, and in fact the whole fulfillment aspect of the business may need some rethinking.

Example: I went on the store yesterday to buy some SSD. It had a 'buy now' button. It also said 'limited availability' and 'max 5 per customer'. Fair enough; it's rationed. I can handle that. So I imagine I can place an order for less than five pieces and they'll be here tomorrow FedEx.

But no, Bomb Squad (great guys, thanks Eddie!) explain to me they're actually on indefinite backorder... they're working through a backlog and it probably won't be tooooo long, but no you can't actually 'buy now'. You can 'order now' and take delivery 'sometime'.

For goodness sake, if it's backordered SAY SO on the website and give a realistic estimate for delivery! Explain exactly - to a newbie to actually buying and using RED like me - what the various stages mean, how you get on an order 'stage', what the schedules and lead times are like, for each product, in plain succinct English, on the damn website. I don't expect to have to wade through threads on a forum like this (wonderful though it is!) to get such basic business information.

This probably sounds more a rant than it's intended to be. But a lot of folks here are old hands, used to RED and their ways - none older than Steve!
I felt it might help you understand why folks new to RED may blink a couple of times and feel less than entirely gruntled with some of the business process. Some things are *excellent* - the response from the Bomb Squad on placing orders was truly world class, prompt and bend-over-backwards helpful. The details are so right, but some of the bigger picture has... issues.

Mike

 

[Jarred Land]

Example: I went on the store yesterday to buy some SSD. It had a 'buy now' button. It also said 'limited availability' and 'max 5 per customer'. Fair enough; it's rationed. I can handle that. So I imagine I can place an order for less than five pieces and they'll be here tomorrow FedEx.

But no, Bomb Squad (great guys, thanks Eddie!) explain to me they're actually on indefinite backorder... they're working through a backlog and it probably won't be tooooo long, but no you can't actually 'buy now'. You can 'order now' and take delivery 'sometime'.

For goodness sake, if it's backordered SAY SO on the website and give a realistic estimate for delivery! Explain exactly - to a newbie to actually buying and using RED like me - what the various stages mean, how you get on an order 'stage', what the schedules and lead times are like, for each product, in plain succinct English, on the damn website. I don't expect to have to wade through threads on a forum like this (wonderful though it is!) to get such basic business information.

Mike

Agree 100%.. We will fix this tomorrow.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Agree 100%.. We will fix this tomorrow.

What did I just say *ten minutes ago* about this being an amazing place where you can interact with...?

Thanks Chief (just a regular line firefighter here!)

Mike

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

FWIW I can see how those new to the RED world may not understand the deeper logic behind the way things work. In some instances, the "huh" factor is simply a product of the rate at which the "situation on the ground" changes. No entity, even one as customer focused as RED, can possibly control every aspect of everything (particularly supply chain).

More to the point, there is an inescapable issue with far more demand than supply. Since some method must be employed to facilitate distribution RED has typically used each customer's original order (serial) number. Once supply catches up, I would expect to RED to sell their products in the usual manner - I'm pretty sure they're looking forward to that as much as anyone :smilewinkgrin:

Cheers - #19

 

[Steve Gibby]

Blair,

I totally agree with you. I wrote my post below while you were writing and posting yours. You posted before me. As the owner of Red One 00019 you've been there from the very beginning like me. Again, IMO your comments are spot-on.


Mike "Fireman" Ross,

I think you raise some valid points - the ones Jarred just addressed.

In a perfect world, with a company that was much older then Red, there would be unlimited supplies of accessories available for instant fulfillment of orders. But that's simply not the case here. Red is a very young company, and they've made phenomenal advances in their short life in design, fabrication, and delivery - considering the monumental scope of what they set out to do. With all those balls in the air, and a geometric increase in demand, the supply side of accessories has lagged at times. They've repeatedly acknowledged that and apologized at several points, redoubling their efforts to get everything ramped up as soon as possible. But also circumstances beyond their control have been part of the problem - FCC regulation clearances, weather, delays, and who knows what else.

So until they get fully up to speed there will naturally be a lot of anxious and impatient people questioning them. So with accessories in short supply, are you suggesting that they just quickly sell what's available to anyone? Those who have been buying Red products for a long time, or even more since the very beginning, and also reserve accessories right at the beginning, will logically have some sort of priority - or else Red starts losing their foundational supporters. Those experienced foundational supporters also have the most experience using Red cameras and accessories - thus are in a good position to field test stuff and get accurate feedback to Red quickly - something that benefits everyone who buys those items after them, because if there are problems or bugs, us "beta testers" will have reported them and they will be corrected before others get their version of the product.

Once Red is fully ramped up - and i believe that is close now - products will be readily available in big numbers, and these kinds of discussions will fade away from Red User.

BTW - I like the saying in your signature about the nobility of someone giving their life for their brothers (and sisters). I'm a live-fire, full term, highly-decorated Viet Nam war veteran who nearly gave that ultimate sacrifice on numerous occasions during my time in the war. I had many friends who did give that sacrifice. I can identify with all people who wear uniforms and risk their lives for others - because I've been there and done that.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I am not a seasoned RED buyer. So far, my experience with RED was to order 2 t-shirts. We should all get a good laugh from that fact that, true to form, they were backordered on one of the colors and I have never seen that t-shirt!!: (That was over a year ago!) :001_tongue:

That said, I have been hanging around here for well over a year now and I know from just being here that RED is just simply not a "business as usual" kind of place. If they were, they would NEVER have accomplished as much as they have. It is clearly a place where "Ready, Fire, Aim" is the modus operandi. Not always very satisfactory when you are anxiously wanting what they have, but that's the way it is.

No one wants anything more than I want my Scarlet. I have placated myself shooting about 30 days with my friend and his RED ONE, which is not a bad "second place" but RED cannot get the Scarlet out the door fast enough for me. However, I think we all have to realize that when you deal with a company that is operating at "the bleeding edge" and accomplishing more than the rest of the industry put together, it is gonna be a little "squirrely" sometimes. But really... you gotta love it. :emote_happyhappy:

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Mike,

I think you raise some valid points - the ones Jarred just addressed.

In a perfect world, with a company that was much older then Red, there would be unlimited supplies of accessories available for instant fulfillment of orders. But that's simply not the case here. Red is a very young company, and they've made phenomenal advances in their short life in design, fabrication, and delivery - considering the monumental scope of what they set out to do. With all those balls in the air, and a geometric increase in demand, the supply side of accessories has lagged at times. They've repeatedly acknowledged that and apologized at several points, redoubling their efforts to get everything ramped up as soon as possible. But also circumstances beyond their control have been part of the problem - FCC regulation clearances, weather, delays, and who knows what else.

So until they get fully up to speed there will naturally be a lot of anxious and impatient people questioning them. So with accessories in short supply, are you suggesting that they just quickly sell what's available to anyone?

Steve,

NO.

That's precisely what I didn't suggest. I'm not just talking accessories, I'm talking transparency and sensible processes across that whole fulfillment process. Example: I go on the RED Store and find 'Bomb EVF'. 'Buy Now'. 'Limited Availability'. To me, used to more... conventional... business practices, that implies they don't have many on hand, so if I want one I better order it now. But here there's a 60 page thread about how 'limited availability' seems to mean 'no availability' for many people and 'buy it now' means 'bought it a year ago and still waiting'. That's just damned unprofessional to my way of thinking; not so much the delays - the ordure can hit the fan in any business - but the lack of clear accurate information on the website.

If I go back to the store and select 'RED Drive 640GB' I find that exactly the same words - 'limited availability' - DO mean what I expected them to mean above!

I'm aware EPICs are shipping, but nowhere on the website does it explain what the various order 'stages' mean or how to get on them, or what the likely lead times are or what the procedures are for someone who wants to get on a 'stage'. As for Scarlet, we have *three words* from Jim: "End of summer" - on this forum, not on the website. Fair enough as far as it goes, but I'd like some clarity on when they expect to start taking orders, how they expect to start taking orders, and how soon they expect to start making deliveries if they hope to complete all the initial orders by 'end of summer'.

And it seems that Jarred has taken the above on board; I'm not suggesting that early adopters like you shouldn't get to beta test, and be the first to get delivery and shake down new gear: I'm suggesting the process needs to be more transparent, the website (not here, the website) needs to be kept up to date with explicit information, and most important of all the 'rest of us' need fulfillment quickly; more quickly than seems to be considered acceptable by RED at times. I'm not saying you shouldn't be at the front, I'm saying those at the back shouldn't have to wait much longer than you!

RED isn't in the 'camera' business... American isn't in the 'transportation' business... Ford isn't in the 'car' business... EVERY company, if they're in it for the long term, is in the 'people' business. RED seems to treat its customers in a stellar manner in most respects, but you can't keep customers (current or potential) waiting too long. From my observations so far, RED sometimes feels like a hypersonic jet has pushed back from the gate, but it's been sitting waiting for a takeoff slot for five hours and the passengers are getting antsy...

I'm going to NAB with chequebook in hand, and I damn well hope to find someone to take my money.

I agree 100% with the rest of the points in your reply.

BTW - I like the saying in your signature about the nobility of someone giving their life for their brothers (and sisters). I'm a live-fire, full term, highly-decorated Viet Nam war veteran who nearly gave that ultimate sacrifice on numerous occasions during my time in the war. I had many friends who did give that sacrifice. I can identify with all people who wear uniforms and risk their lives for others - I've been there and done that.

Thank you for your service, and your kind words; you have my total respect. I'm only a part-time firefighter, a volunteer, but I do what I can.

Mike

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

I understand your position now much better. You raise some valid points. Red is a company that listens and interacts with their customers - you, me, and everyone else. I find that amazingly cool - and very different than other equipment companies in this industry. In my experience Red is the most transparent equipment manufacturer I've dealt with in my entire career.

These forums are here for all of us to give respectful and honest feedback to each other and to Red. Jarred already noted that Red was onto the path of solving some of the issues you raised. My educated guess would be that they've already been very much aware of those same issues for a long time now, and have been working night and day to get them corrected. That may not happen overnight, but I think everyone here can be assured that Red is busting their rears to make sure things normalize in the fulfillment and delivery process as soon as possible.

Also, it makes no difference to me whether your're a part time or full time firefighter, or a volunteer, all men and women who wear a uniform and risk their lives to protect us have my utmost respect.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Oh and Steve, if I was playing Devil's Advocate here, I could point out that you *already have* a camera which can shoot 4K... I don't! So maybe it would actually be more democratic or fairer if I could have my first camera, before you get a chance at your second...? :biggrinjester:

Mike

 

[Michael Hastings]

Oh and Steve, if I was playing Devil's Advocate here, I could point out that you *already have* a camera which can shoot 4K... I don't! So maybe it would actually be more democratic or fairer if I could have my first camera, before you get a chance at your second...? :biggrinjester:

Mike

Mike: Your critique of putting the info on the website, and making inventory status more clear at time of order, was spot on.

But regarding Gibby's second camera, you are pretty far off on the fairness issue. AFAIK you haven't yet purchased a camera or given Red any money. Current camera owners are in a completely different situation than you.

We bought REDONE's and - based on an early promise of "obsolescence obsolete" and a later realistic assessment that the REDONE was not quite the best platform to achieve that PLUS a sense of loyalty to the early adopters that went through all the growing stages - RED came up with the Epic-X trade-in your REDONE program for full credit toward a special Epic package. They added a wrinkle to that a year ago, in that you could pay extra to keep the REDONE and still get the Epic-X and those of us that took that Stage 2 option paid a $5000 deposit back in May of 2010. So we have "dibs" rights based on being REDONE early adopters (the program was cut off for later purchasers) and "double dibs" rights for those that paid a very substantial deposit. Gibby would have been camera #3 of the stage two program and so getting offered one of the machined preproduction units was completely fair.

So, although I agree RED needs to be clearer and particularly put some of that kind of info on their actual website instead of having people wade through all of these post/threads (it even gets aggravating for current owners), you really have no "rights" with RED until you actually place an order/send some money.

And ditto on Gibby's tip of the hat to the firefighters - I'm surrounded by them - my wife's a firefighter and inspector, daughter is an inspector, stepson just got hired as firefighter with our county and stepdaughter would be at the state fire college except she injured an ankle.

Again, we all welcome you and don't hesitate with your thoughts, but I thought I would clarify/defend the early adopters position as well.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I can assure you that there are two people who hate delays more than anyone here on this forum. It's Jim and Jarred.

If they had their way, you would have products before you even knew you wanted the product.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I can assure you that there are two people who hate delays more than anyone here on this forum. It's Jim and Jarred.

If they had their way, you would have products before you even knew you wanted the product.

I dont think anyone here doubts that..
its more about transparency.
RED is more than transparent about the products coming out.. features.. so on..
but lacks transparency on realistic time frames.
as a customer, Id rather be told.. "turns out we dont have a manufacturer yet, so it might be much longer than expected" than told in august. "bomb evfs finished and shipping.. then "EVF backorder will be fulfilled by first week of dec" and now told their shipping.. but in what quantity. or when i can expect to receive on so on..

I think this is where the frustration lies.. not in the actual delays.
I have to keep money in place as a deposit. but have no idea, how long i must be losing my interest on that chunk.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Mike: Your critique of putting the info on the website, and making inventory status more clear at time of order, was spot on.

But regarding Gibby's second camera, you are pretty far off on the fairness issue. AFAIK you haven't yet purchased a camera or given Red any money. Current camera owners are in a completely different situation than you.

You must have missed my :biggrinjester: emoticon; I said I was playing Devils Advocate and arguing a position I didn't actually believe in. I do that sometimes, just to get people thinking

(Oh and for the record I have given RED a bit of money recently; I've been buying up all the bits & pieces I'll need for my camera - media, accessories etc. - in advance of actually knowing when RED will let me order the damn camera itself! How's that for a vote of confidence in RED?

And ditto on Gibby's tip of the hat to the firefighters - I'm surrounded by them - my wife's a firefighter and inspector, daughter is an inspector, stepson just got hired as firefighter with our county and stepdaughter would be at the state fire college except she injured an ankle.

Oh excellent; the very best of luck to all of them! Remember, stay low, leave the damn fog nozzle on the truck, and regard PPV with suspicion (that's the New York gospel . If I was even ten years younger I would be looking to get on the job and damn everything else - but then I wouldn't be buying RED!

We now return you to your scheduled program.

Mike

 

[Rick Darge]

I dont think anyone here doubts that..
its more about transparency.
RED is more than transparent about the products coming out.. features.. so on..
but lacks transparency on realistic time frames.
as a customer, Id rather be told.. "turns out we dont have a manufacturer yet, so it might be much longer than expected" than told in august. "bomb evfs finished and shipping.. then "EVF backorder will be fulfilled by first week of dec" and now told their shipping.. but in what quantity. or when i can expect to receive on so on..

I think this is where the frustration lies.. not in the actual delays.
I have to keep money in place as a deposit. but have no idea, how long i must be losing my interest on that chunk.

This is exactly how I feel about the situation. I don't mind delays. I just don't like being told one thing and then another... I'd rather you be up front and honest and straightforward from the start, otherwise i just get disappointed and so do my clients.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I know this may not be the exact information everyone is looking for, but Jon does seem to update it.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7253

In situations where delivery time could be critical for a job, I highly recommend contacting your Bomb Squad rep and asking for up-to-date information on availability and follow up with them if need be to make sure everything is on target.

And just so everyone doesn't think I'm blowing smoke, I too am in line, in my case, for SSDs and could really use them right now. But my rep was very straightforward with me when I ordered them and told me they would have to make it through backordered RED drives before they reached new orders. So, I'm right there with everyone else who is waiting for gear, but I've also been around since the early days and know the challenges that RED faces at times. Some of it has been growing pains, and some of it has been out of their control.

I made the comment about Jim and Jarred mostly for any new REDusers who don't know these guys personally. I know it doesn't change the fact that products are late, and people want their stuff yesterday.

 

[Felix K.]

I put it that way: I wouldn't want a BOMB EVF before Gibby tested it