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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

BlackMagic UpDownCross inline to DeckLink card?

Chris Ratledge

Chris Ratledge

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I have had to put a reclocking DA (in my experience from AJA) between the RED's SDI output and my BMD Decklink Extreme 3D card to get any usable signal to capture and playback, per the RED's Jitter issues.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18632&page=5

BMD support suggested trying their UpDownCross mini converter, but stated they haven't tested this themselves. Makes me nervous since the card can't handle the Jitter, don't know how/if the mini-converter could either.

UpDownCross converter

Curious if anyone else out there has. I'd rather not fork out the dough for this and deal with returns if it doesn't work, if I can benefit from someone else's experience here trying the same thing.

Thanks.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I have had to put a reclocking DA (in my experience from AJA) between the RED's SDI output and my BMD Decklink Extreme 3D card to get any usable signal to capture and playback, per the RED's Jitter issues.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18632&page=5

BMD support suggested trying their UpDownCross mini converter, but stated they haven't tested this themselves. Makes me nervous since the card can't handle the Jitter, don't know how/if the mini-converter could either.

UpDownCross converter

Curious if anyone else out there has. I'd rather not fork out the dough for this and deal with returns if it doesn't work, if I can benefit from someone else's experience here trying the same thing.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I would imagine they're suggesting this as the mini-converter reclocks. I have NO experience of this however, just a thought.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
It works.

If you have experience with the AJA part and like it, then why not order what you are comfortable with?
Click to expand...

I've been eyeing the UpDownCross since it's announcement for the format conversions alone, but haven't had much call for it before now. The fact that I'm hearing it can act in the fashion in which I'm inquiring here is just a bonus that will kinda seal the deal.

The AJA unit is fine, but it's street price is about $120 more than the UpDownCross.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I've been eyeing the UpDownCross since it's announcement for the format conversions alone, but haven't had much call for it before now. The fact that I'm hearing it can act in the fashion in which I'm inquiring here is just a bonus that will kinda seal the deal.

The AJA unit is fine, but it's street price is about $120 more than the UpDownCross.
Click to expand...

I see...

Well, just remember that the UpDownCross converter just reclocks as a side effect of its main function. It has to reclock if you are converting 25p to 24p as an example, so that's why it does it.

That said the AJA unit I'm guessing you are considering also does its thing as a adjunct. Its really a signal amplifier- but because we are in digital land, what it really does is read in the original signal and regenerate it, including re-clocking it for retransmission down the SDI pipe.

I'm not just throwing a sheet anchor for the hell of it, I want to remind you that these gadgets aren't designed for your purpose, and thus won't be as robust as you might need- depending on your intended use.



Of course the REAL fix is called Epic.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
I'm not just throwing a sheet anchor for the hell of it, I want to remind you that these gadgets aren't designed for your purpose, and thus won't be as robust as you might need- depending on your intended use.

Of course the REAL fix is called Epic.
Click to expand...

I don't really understand your meaning behind "these gadgets aren't designed for my purpose." My concern in this thread is in a VTR playback role, not a straight image-acquisition role, so I don't see how Epic fixes it for me right now.

My only concern with your statement that the UpDownCross does in fact work in this fashion I first queried is, have you actually tested this yourself, (or been on set with it in use) on more than one R1 body? Or are you just going by the tech specs form BMD about it's re-clocking functionality? I'm concerned that if the Decklink card can't handle it, can the converter?
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I don't really understand your meaning behind "these gadgets aren't designed for my purpose." My concern in this thread is in a VTR playback role, not a straight image-acquisition role, so I don't see how Epic fixes it for me right now.

My only concern with your statement that the UpDownCross does in fact work in this fashion I first queried is, have you actually tested this yourself, (or been on set with it in use) on more than one R1 body? Or are you just going by the tech specs form BMD about it's re-clocking functionality? I'm concerned that if the Decklink card can't handle it, can the converter?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've been on a shoot when one was used on a RED One non-MX.

Actually that's when I learned about the issue. (And the UpDownCross)

I've only seen it the one time, and just on a single R1. I was hired to point the camera. It wasn't my RED, not my shoot, I had nothing to do with the footage after the shoot. Every other camera on the shoot was a 2/3" ENG camera- mostly HPX 2000 & 2700.

My meaning is that the devices aren't dedicated re-clocking devices, and thus aren't necessarily as robust as a dedicated re-clocking module would be.

Why am I saying that? Because that's what the engineer said when I asked him why he was attaching a box to the RED I was about to operate. He wasn't certain it would work, and he was running back and forth until he was satisfied.

The key there is that he was eventually satisfied.

Epic doesn't fix a damn thing right now of course, because hardly anyone has one.

Epic "fixes" it because it has a better SDI output. Its less of a fix than a replacement.

Sorry if I upset you by volunteering that information- as limited as it is I was trying to help.

Quite frankly I am not an expert on this issue- not by a LOOOOOONG shot. I still don't even know why I should care about the clock jitter on the SDI out. So, I'm off to read the old thread linked in the OP.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
pretty sure mine is the non+ version. I'm going to contact BMD support again, cause if that's true, I'm swapping this one out.
Click to expand...

Where can one read up on the differences between the Decklink 3D and the Decklink 3D+, and how do I ensure I'm getting a 3D+?
 
I assure you no offense was taken, just clarifying. I hope to learn where I can find the difference between the plus and non-plus versions of this card, as I've seen that floating around but can't find anything jumping out at me with online searches either.
 
The Problem is the Red sends out a 1.5 gb/s signal, all recent BlackMagic Hardware no longer supports 1.5 only 3gb/s. This is also true about the HDlink. So any other device that supports 1.5 and has a loop output will re-clock the signal. For instance a 17" HD-SDi monitor. I use the 1-6 DA from Decimator, it makes sense anyway.. sometimes I have sound, vtr, and script plugged into me.
 
Alex Carr said:
The Problem is the Red sends out a 1.5 gb/s signal, all recent BlackMagic Hardware no longer supports 1.5 only 3gb/s. This is also true about the HDlink. So any other device that supports 1.5 and has a loop output will re-clock the signal. For instance a 17" HD-SDi monitor. I use the 1-6 DA from Decimator, it makes sense anyway.. sometimes I have sound, vtr, and script plugged into me.
Click to expand...

What I don't understand is that, at least according to the documentation, my BMD Decklink card supports SMPTE 292M HD-SDI. I don't have another camera capable of this type of output at my immediate disposal, so I can't really test it easily, but will look into doing so when I can.

I TOTALLY forgot about the Decimator line, turns out it looks like it can do the the job even cheaper. Thanks for the memory jog.

So you're feeding graded monitoring feeds to those respective departments?
 
Alex Carr said:
The Problem is the Red sends out a 1.5 gb/s signal, all recent BlackMagic Hardware no longer supports 1.5 only 3gb/s. This is also true about the HDlink. So any other device that supports 1.5 and has a loop output will re-clock the signal. For instance a 17" HD-SDi monitor. I use the 1-6 DA from Decimator, it makes sense anyway.. sometimes I have sound, vtr, and script plugged into me.
Click to expand...

Wait, what?

3G SDI is backwards compatible.

I think the problem, from reading the thread the OP linked, is that the RED's SDI output has poor compliance with the SMPTE standards. I haven't seen an eye pattern test with a RED as the source... but if its as bad as reported then its a damn shame.

Of course... that may contribute to some of my other complaints about the RED output.

Good engineering practice is to be very strict with your output, and forgiving on your inputs. Probably the best example is the web browser, which will try to do the "right thing", and failing that do something human readable, no matter what kind of cr4p you feed it.

BlackMagic seems to be strict about its inputs. Bad BMD! Of course now they are adding reclocking to inputs apparently, so good for BMD! I think that speaks to their philosophy and goals.

RED seems to have been depending on everyone else being accepting of its lousy output, thus their disclaimer that the output was for monitoring only.

OK, so its bad, but why should I care in the larger scheme? It doesn't affect file based workflows... so perhaps **I** shouldn't.
 
bummer for me. Hopefully I can get a good return/refund/exchange. I just got this thing 2 weeks ago.

wish me luck, and thanks to everyone for the help. If all goes well I'll update to see if the "+" version handles the R1 SDI.
 
Alex Carr said:
The Problem is the Red sends out a 1.5 gb/s signal, all recent BlackMagic Hardware no longer supports 1.5 only 3gb/s. This is also true about the HDlink. So any other device that supports 1.5 and has a loop output will re-clock the signal. For instance a 17" HD-SDi monitor. I use the 1-6 DA from Decimator, it makes sense anyway.. sometimes I have sound, vtr, and script plugged into me.
Click to expand...

Hi,

This is incorrect. We support both 1.5 and 3 Gb/s SDI. The issue is the jitter output from the RED One is way out of SMPTE spec. However, the HD Extreme 3D+ card does have input reclockers and have been tested with the RED One camera's preview output.
 
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