Blackmagic Mini Ursa 4.6K New Footage looks darn good.

[John Brawley]

I have no up-to-date inside info Wayne, so it could be - but I just can't see Grant sending stuff overseas when he is so ... um ... How do I put this? Concerned with every aspect of his products. The guy knows where every single chip lives on every single board. I watched him instal and set up the first pick & place machine and flow oven himself. He's not an outsourcing kinda guy. Certainly he'd be buying his components in but that Port Melbourne facility is amazing.

Indeed. I don't think many realize that they actually make their own PCB's. From scratch. They also make a lot of their own hardware. So the actual camera bodies themselves are made by Blackmagic. They are the opposite of outsourcing.

JB

 

[John Brawley]

@Mr. Hastings. Your deference and long standing membership are noted. We are all just having just a good conversation between the boys.

The RED delay episodes are now historical fact and so are BMD’s for that matter. Difference being is that RED eventually sorted thru the ToDo list. The wait isn’t the killer, it’s the product value or lack of after reaching your number in the queue.

So far, the URSA Mini 4K as a 2nd generation, professional, camera is exhibiting some new and old problems leftover issues from the previous generation.

• Fixed noise pattern being the most notable and persistant
• Poor preamps
• Dropped frames
• SDI cutouts
• Random power downs
• External monitor buttons cease to work when monitor door is closed
• RF interference with wireless systems
• Low light quality has not improved

Lost credibility. Loss of income for some. It’s a very troubling situation.

Fanboy energy within context is not a bad thing, no hate. Just needs to be a payoff for that enthusiasm and patience. A sidebar: My recent trip to 34th & 9th Ave to talk with the pro video group, I was shocked at how small the queue currently is for the Ursa Mini 4.6K

I think most of these reported issues are attributed to one source, the B&H reviews....

And these are reviews of the 4K mini, not the 4.6K sensor that's being discussed in this thread.

From memory some reviews were even on the not-yet-shipped 4.6K which does make you wonder.....

Things like "low light quality has not improved" is a bit spurious. It's still the same base 400 ISO global shutter sensor as the original 4K camera, there wasn't a "promise" of it being better in this model. How can that be a complaint ? Things like dropped frames are always to do with using unsupported media.

If you pay a visit to the sister forum of BMCUSER, you'll find just as many AREN"T having any of those problems with their 4K Minis and the B&H posts are largely discredited. In fact, there are also almost as many who say they prefer the look of the 4K sensor over the sneak peak footage from the new sensor.

I'm pretty sure most Red users have similar experience with chinese whispers of problems with a camera from those that haven't used or haven't bother to invest in the time to know how to use the camera or workflow properly....

JB

 

[Shane Betts]

I guess it will be written on Box or Camera itself. Any URSA owners should know.
If is does not say, then it is not Made Down Under.

That statement makes no sense at all. So, if there's no mention of the country of origin, it MUST mean China? Whatever.

As I say, the country of manufacture means nothing. Apple, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic etc etc. They all manufacture in Asia (most under the same roof). Red and BMD are the exceptions. You've had two people who know BMD well telling you it's not the case but I guess you know better from wherever it is you live.

 

[M.Halsell]

@Mr. Brawley. Fair enough for the corrected response as the thread is about the 4.6K. My apologies for being off topic. It is quite clear thats BM cameras do produce a pleasing and tasteful image, particularly for the price point. The 4.6K camera is yet unreleased, so complete judgement will have wait until ample sample size for feedback on build quality and BM customer service response to any early issues.

 

[Michael Hastings]

@Mr. Brawley. Fair enough for the corrected response as the thread is about the 4.6K. My apologies for being off topic. It is quite clear thats BM cameras do produce a pleasing and tasteful image, particularly for the price point. The 4.6K camera is yet unreleased, so complete judgement will have wait until ample sample size for feedback on build quality and BM customer service response to any early issues.

As you say, we'll really only know once it ships in volume and some time has passed - "proof will be in the pudding".

I do appreciate what you said earlier: "We are all just having just a good conversation between the boys." To me that's when these forums are good - when we can talk like we are standing in the aisles at NAB, maybe with a little passion, but still friendly. And I have learned a lot from this thread with John and Shane's posts - that wouldn't have happened without the back and forth.

 

[John Brawley]

@Mr. Brawley. Fair enough for the corrected response as the thread is about the 4.6K. My apologies for being off topic. It is quite clear thats BM cameras do produce a pleasing and tasteful image, particularly for the price point. The 4.6K camera is yet unreleased, so complete judgement will have wait until ample sample size for feedback on build quality and BM customer service response to any early issues.

Oh for sure, they have stumbled often, and been slapped down for it, but I do think that if you look at what the Ursa Mini 4.6K is today, they've come a long way since April 2012. No doubt they'll make more faux pas but that is the nature of the speed they develop at. Often there are issues at the beginning of when they ship, but they seem to respond quickly when they pick them up. They also seem to have gone out to a much wider range of beta testers too, which I think has been good and bad depending on how skilled they are

I personally think they've done a very nice job with this camera. I'm looking forward to some DNG's going out so people can really get a sense of how the pictures sit.

jb

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

That statement makes no sense at all. So, if there's no mention of the country of origin, it MUST mean China? Whatever.

As I say, the country of manufacture means nothing. Apple, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic etc etc. They all manufacture in Asia (most under the same roof). Red and BMD are the exceptions. You've had two people who know BMD well telling you it's not the case but I guess you know better from wherever it is you live.

You mudt have some reading disorder.
Read again. Read again and again.
What did i say.??
In simple English, if it does not say where it is made (which is strange) ,it is not made Down Under.
What is your problem?
I for one , since i live and make $$ in Australia, prefer to have manufacturing here.
You are not BMD part time emploee, or are you?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

When is a fixed 20x f1.2 version coming with storm proofing, extra prosumer/Eng controls and semi auto features and picture rendering, with the new sensor tech for $2k. How much longer

 

[Sergei Smolovich]

I've always felt BM has a nice color science, it's just that everything else about their cameras suck really bad.... So yeah, they've made a good color science and image, but they need to now make a working, reliable camera.

==============================

I was fight with BM from the beginning asking them to REMOVE that "side flipping monitor" on URSA Mini, make the Monitor completely SEPARATE - to give us the option to place it to any different side of camera and connect it to camera by cable... because I can't open the monitor if camera on my Ronin, and even when it's on Tripod RIG - the monitor position make a problem with Follow Focus handle ...

and I ask them to make some comfortable knobs and buttons on the RIGHT side of camera.. but they DO NOT LISTEN AT ALL !!!

.. so, after I read that negative reviews on B&H about 4K URSA Mini - I DELETED my Pre-order for URSA Mini 4.6K :tongue:

I'm sure that "Camera" is not as important as "My Ability to make perfect COMPOSITION, reasonable CAMERA MOVEMENT, Logical LIGHTING and nice Decoration SET at front of the camera ".. :wink5:

if I'm good in it - NO matter what Camera I gonna use, even my current BMPC 4K will be enough ...

...so, I decide to wait until they make some LOGICAL CHANGE in they URSA Mini Camera DESIGN... if NOT - I will look to something else at NAB 2016 :001_tt2:

 

[Sergei Smolovich]

Hi, John! ... as you are in Sydney, Australia, maybe you can talk to Blackmagic about the MOST problematic part of URSA Mini design:

Side mounted Monitor:

this is completely stupid idea - to make this as on "cheap camcorders" ...

Will be much better is they make the monitor SEPARATE , with option to place it ANYWHERE - on Top of the camera or even on Top of my Ronin gimbal Stabilizer....

I would even prefer to pay for separate monitor extra, then have it as it is.. ..

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Nothing stops you from buying a separate monitor and use that on the Ursa.
I do it all the time for my focus puller.

 

[John Brawley]

Frank he's upset because he doesn't like that some controls are restricted when you close the screen door (like power) because it makes it harder to use on a gimbal.

JB.

 

[william otto]

Nothing stops you from buying a separate monitor and use that on the Ursa.
I do it all the time for my focus puller.

You can also use these... http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?sku=V11H560020

I've been testing these out and once you get use to them they work great as a viewer, especially for hand held work. You can demo them at NAB if interested.

 

[Sergei Smolovich]

Frank he's upset because he doesn't like that some controls are restricted when you close the screen door (like power) because it makes it harder to use on a gimbal. JB.

Exactly !!! I don't talk about extra monitor at all... ,
... but why we have to pay for original monitor, if it block "some controls" on Gimbal and Blackmagic don't give us an option to place it in any other positions on camera?

I never like Blackmagic way to control the camera by touch-screen monitor, instead to have it on camera and handle ... this suppose to be not a smartphone, but camera for serious Cinema Production ...

every amateur able to use this set of controls on even cheap DSLR cameras :

so, why Blackmagic give us a headache when I need a "fast look to 100% image to focusing" on they VERY REFLECTIVE monitor in BMCC and BMPC 4K or make some adjustments to my settings in the middle of filming without "replace the image on screen by Menu" ?

peoples on B&H review says that Monitor on URSA Mini 4K was just "went out" , Dead pixels, The noise is horrendous at low ISO and other problem...

and I when I took RAW file from URSA Mini 4.6K and found terrible noise also..

Take a look to this test:

and Rolling shutter test: https://vimeo.com/160577415
------------

I wait for NAB 2016... and than I will decide.. but .. if I have a chance to get enough money for RED or Alexa I would never again look back to Blackmagic cameras :sad:

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Exactly !!! I don't talk about extra monitor at all... ,
... but why we have to pay for original monitor, if it block "some controls" on Gimbal and Blackmagic don't give us an option to place it in any other positions on camera?

I never like Blackmagic way to control the camera by touch-screen monitor, instead to have it on camera and handle ... this suppose to be not a smartphone, but camera for serious Cinema Production ...

every amateur able to use this set of controls on even cheap DSLR cameras :

so, why Blackmagic give us a headache when I need a "fast look to 100% image to focusing" on they VERY REFLECTIVE monitor in BMCC and BMPC 4K or make some adjustments to my settings in the middle of filming without "replace the image on screen by Menu" ?

peoples on B&H review says that Monitor on URSA Mini 4K was just "went out" , Dead pixels, The noise is horrendous at low ISO and other problem...

and I when I took RAW file from URSA Mini 4.6K and found terrible noise also..

Take a look to this test:

and Rolling shutter test: https://vimeo.com/160577415
------------

I wait for NAB 2016... and than I will decide.. but .. if I have a chance to get enough money for RED or Alexa I would never again look back to Blackmagic cameras :sad:

I'm not a huge fan of Blackmagic cameras at all, but I did just do a head-to-head between the 4.6K and the Alexa Classic, and I was fairly impressed. You will be able to see the results on the Slanted Lens YouTube channel tomorrow (hosted by a friend of mine). But I actually found the Ursa Mini 4.6K to be VERY clean in the shadows. I don't know how it compares to the Dragon, but it held a stop more detail in the shadows than the Alexa Classic. Color retention, on the other hand, was not very good. Even at -2 stops the color saturation went super flat--that's where the Alexa really shines.

 

[John Brawley]

Color retention, on the other hand, was not very good. Even at -2 stops the color saturation went super flat--that's where the Alexa really shines.

Hi Kenneth.

Can I ask for some more information about processing ?

The LOG profile on the UM4.6K has actually got a lot more colour than the older BM profiles. Your comment would make sense in that context, but if you're seeing less colour that the already de-saturated Alexa, then I wonder if there's something else going on in processing as that's not what should be expected.

Looking forward to the test...

jb

 

[Michael Hastings]

Ursa means beer? No wonder an Aussie company chose that!

Oh........ sorry. You said BEAR.

Never mind.


Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.

A much better camera naming system ! One that everyone could understand !

JB

BMD introducing the 8K Pilsner at this years' NAB. :wink5:

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Hi Kenneth.

Can I ask for some more information about processing ?

The LOG profile on the UM4.6K has actually got a lot more colour than the older BM profiles. Your comment would make sense in that context, but if you're seeing less colour that the already de-saturated Alexa, then I wonder if there's something else going on in processing as that's not what should be expected.

Looking forward to the test...

jb

Hey John, I thought you might ask

My goal was to see how the image behaved when over/under exposed and then put through a basic grade. So, for the Alexa footage, I simply applied DaVinci's Rec709 LUT (which I find a useful starting place for a lot of the stuff I cut), and then I adjusted the exposure and curve to a well contrasted image. I basically tried to match the other exposures to exposure at 0EV.

I had to treat the UM4.6K a little differently. While the Rec709 LUT on the Alexa seems to preserve the luma values somewhere, the 4.6K Film to Rec709 LUT seemed to throw the information away. If applying the LUT clipped a highlight, it was unrecoverable after that. So, I applied the Rec709 LUT to the 0EV image and then tried to match the rest by hand. That proved difficult because it seems that the Rec709 is actually doing minor color transformations. When simply boosting the saturation and contrast of the log curve, the image had an orange bias that I had to try and compensate for. When the image was more than 2 stops over or under, I had to apply a second layer of saturation to match the color of the 0EV clip.

 

[jake blackstone]

My goal was to see how the image behaved when over/under exposed and then put through a basic grade. So, for the Alexa footage, I simply applied DaVinci's Rec709 LUT (which I find a useful starting place for a lot of the stuff I cut), and then I adjusted the exposure and curve to a well contrasted image. I basically tried to match the other exposures to exposure at 0EV.

I had to treat the UM4.6K a little differently. While the Rec709 LUT on the Alexa seems to preserve the luma values somewhere, the 4.6K Film to Rec709 LUT seemed to throw the information away. If applying the LUT clipped a highlight, it was unrecoverable after that. So, I applied the Rec709 LUT to the 0EV image and then tried to match the rest by hand. That proved difficult because it seems that the Rec709 is actually doing minor color transformations. When simply boosting the saturation and contrast of the log curve, the image had an orange bias that I had to try and compensate for. When the image was more than 2 stops over or under, I had to apply a second layer of saturation to match the color of the 0EV clip.

If you want to compare apples to apples, then don't use LUTs. LUTs like a.. holes, everyone has one. For example one used by Resolve for Alexa is not a photometric type ARRI recommends. If you care, download them from the ARRI Generator site. Anyway, if you want some consistency, that everyone can repeat and understand, use ACES. IDTs are the same on all grading software and they are created by the camera manufacturers. So, if IDT is not up to snuff, then camera manufacturers can only blame themselves, not users doing "I adjusted the exposure and curve to a well contrasted image"...

 

[M.Halsell]

Jake how would one check the correctness or quality of the scene linear value if there is question mark about the IDT in use? Im asking about circumstances where the camera manufacturer hasn't provided an official IDT?