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BlackMagic HyperDeck Shuttle - potential Scarlet HD Field Recorder?

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stu aull

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http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hyperdeckshuttle/

Just caught NAB chatter about this device and checked out the above link. Although no specs/prices on the SSDs (proprietary BM-D units I expect), at $345 for the Recorder this seems like a tempting alternative to the RED SSD kit for _HD_ recording (disclaimer: I have a deposit on RED SSD camera and desk modules for "my" Scarlet). I would think, based on BM-Ds history of VERY inexpensive, quality hardware, (I have used their cards for years) that the SSDs will likely be very inexpensive. Again I emphasize that I do not suggest performance matching the 4K-spec RED SSDs, but I would think for the majority of us Future Scarlet Owners, _much_ of our day-to-day shooting would likely be in the HD-realm, making such an uncompressed (!) HD recorder a viable alternative? Of course we give up the RED RAW option and all the benefits of 3K.

I confess to knowing / understanding just enough about SDI/HDMI specs to be dangerous, but it would seem that there would be compatibility to our Scarlets for recording? Of course, there would be no camera-record-triggering (unless someone clever enough...) - but such a unit looks to be a small enough form-factor (they present it as a recorder for much smaller cameras on their site) to easily mount with/at/on the Scarlet.
One caveat I have actually emailed them about: the device seems to be powered by a "built-in" Lithium-ion battery, which, if true is just silly. It would HAVE to have an interchangeable battery to be useful. Perhaps their intent is to use this as a DOWNLOADING platform in the field? That would be a shame...

Anyway - just wanted to point it out. A quality recorder that you could buy WITH a nice clip of SSDs for the cost (??) of a single RED 64GB SSD is certainly tempting to consider.

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
4:2:2 1080p uncompressed is 2.97 Gbits per second. This deck will require expensive very fast SSD cards and the data will take up more space than 3k R3D files. I don't see any advantage to it for Red users. A compressed format deck, llike the KI or Ninja that records native Prores would be a more reasonable choice for economy and fast turn video work.
 
It's simply impossible to take full advantage of the RED camera if you're simply recording the SDI output. The whole reason for RED is beyond HD resolution and RAW capture. The Black Magic recorder won't allow you to do either.
 
The Black Magic device is pretty cool, but I have to say it seems not to be a tool I'd use much in a Red environment.

It records 10 bit 4:2:2. I think it will record 12 bit 4:4:4 RGB ... not clear on that. Versions I have used don't.

It does use commodity 2.5" SSD drives.

I appreciate its simplicity. I think it may be a go to recorder for cameras like the Sony NEX FS100 and F3 on effects shots for low budget.

That said, the Cinedeck and Gemini have a slightly higher price point sewn up with the F3, but aside from that there are no conventional cameras in that marketplace that can exceed its recording quality. (None of the proposed Red cameras are conventional, aside from the F3 the other cameras that can outdo that quality via an output are priced way out of that market.)
 
Aaron Newsome said:
It's simply impossible to take full advantage of the RED camera if you're simply recording the SDI output. The whole reason for RED is beyond HD resolution and RAW capture. The Black Magic recorder won't allow you to do either.
Click to expand...

Understood. Realities of at least my client workflow for most projects will be HD rez. So for folks in my position, does it make sense to spend the extra $4K minimum to get the Beyond HD for these clients? In markets where we are competing with the P2 guys, this kind of price point ( HyperDeck's) can't be ignored. $3K difference will buy me a LOT of field hardware (Red included) I can use day-to-day for production. For me and likely at least SOME Scarlet users, the form factor, quality and overall feature set of the Scarlet goes beyond the ability to capture in 3K. 3K is the icing, but its the cake that will pay my bills and give me the most Bang. Sadly I am not in the Epic budget range, incredible price that they will be (paid $32K for my BetaSP camcorder in 1990!). Hard not to glance at a potential recording option at a 1/3rd (?) the cost.

Obv there is much to be revealed about the Hyper Decks; its all vaporware right now, tho I have faith in BlackMagic-Design. Just interesting that there may be some viable recording options at a favorable price point.

Stu Aull
Alaska

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
I think David hit the main problem on the head... storage. Dual SDI is 2.97 Gbps. I believe the hyperdeck shuttle is single SDI, which is still 1.5Gbps. Unmanageably large, which would probably be 40 minutes on a 500 gig drive. And we're talking just 1080p.... Yikes....
 
Talking to the Black Magic Reps at NAB I believe I was told the battery would last roughly 2 hours (not sure I remember that correctly... but it definitely wasn't anywhere near 6 or 8 hours).
And we were told datarate was roughly 10gb per min - so roughly 50mins on a 500gb SSD.


 
Who would want to record 4:2:2 YUV 1080p when you can record 3K RAW on board? At 100 MB/s, 3K/24p, with an SSD, we are talking lossless REDCODE compression. I see no merits to this device in a Scarlet environment.
 
The BM shuttle looks like it will be a useful device, but I don't see how there would be any benefit from using it with a Scarlet, apart from maybe having an uncompressed backup off the camera. The Sound Devices recorders announced at NAB could be a great partner though, especially if you need quick turn around Pro Res. With the nice audio loviness and TC options, they look like they could be a good investment.
 
I'm going to get into trouble for this but the Blackmagic device uses commodity HDDs or SSDs, is tiny and cheap. If you want to record companion video as uncompressed (a lot of folk do still prefer uncompressed) then it's fabulous. If you'd rather record to ProRes, then I'd go for the Ninja from Atomos. Way smaller and cheaper than the other devices (aside from the BMD one), has an LCD screen and, once again, uses commodity drives. You can even use it as a viewfinder with their cheap hoods and diopters. There are a number of devices from AJA, Sound Devices etc. but all larger, heavier and more expensive. I know for a fact that both BMD and Atomos are working with Red right now to ensure their devices will work nicely with the Red output - ie: will record/pause with the camera and will record the file names used in-camera for easy link-back in post. This means you never have to actually drive the recorder and you'll always have the option of going back to the R3Ds in post if you need to.
 
James Drake said:
I think David hit the main problem on the head... storage. Dual SDI is 2.97 Gbps. I believe the hyperdeck shuttle is single SDI, which is still 1.5Gbps. Unmanageably large, which would probably be 40 minutes on a 500 gig drive. And we're talking just 1080p.... Yikes....
Click to expand...

Single link HDSDI at 1.65Gb/sec will only do 1080i not 1080p.
 
Shane Betts said:
I'm going to get into trouble for this but the Blackmagic device uses commodity HDDs or SSDs, is tiny and cheap. If you want to record companion video as uncompressed (a lot of folk do still prefer uncompressed) then it's fabulous. If you'd rather record to ProRes, then I'd go for the Ninja from Atomos. Way smaller and cheaper than the other devices (aside from the BMD one), has an LCD screen and, once again, uses commodity drives. You can even use it as a viewfinder with their cheap hoods and diopters. There are a number of devices from AJA, Sound Devices etc. but all larger, heavier and more expensive. I know for a fact that both BMD and Atomos are working with Red right now to ensure their devices will work nicely with the Red output - ie: will record/pause with the camera and will record the file names used in-camera for easy link-back in post. This means you never have to actually drive the recorder and you'll always have the option of going back to the R3Ds in post if you need to.
Click to expand...

Exactly Shane-
this was more to my point: operational cost. (I understand your emphasis was more on Companion Recording)
I _Love_ Sound Devices (SD) gear (have one of their mixers) but, like the AJA recorders, even these are going to be PRICEY. As in: why-not-stick-with-RED-SSD Pricey. The AJA's start at $2K and I betting the SD's will be even more. Maybe I am in a different head-space about Cost-of-Operation than mainstream Scarlet Users. But in the Corporate/Documentary environment I work in (you know, where a project might be 10-25 reels of material), the nose-bleed price-of-entry into RED SSD will just not be either cost-effective (can't afford fists full of SSDs) or field-effective (I can afford a COUPLE of SSDs + Camera mount + station - but don't need the angst of constant access to a laptop and reswapping in limited SSDs throughout a shoot). Obv as SSDs get cheaper this will change, but that will be a couple of years down the road methinks.

Again, I Get the 3K argument. Its _potential_ use is a huge draw for me and certainly goes a long way to future-proofing my investment down the road. I _WILL_ buy a couple of 64Gig SSDs and the support hardware for "those special times" when I want/need The Glory of 3K. But for the other 90% of my work? Something like the HyperDecks or a Ninja will go a l-o-o-ng way to making my Scarlet system practical in the wee world of Nowhere, Alaska (and maybe places like Nowhere, MA - etc.)

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
a device like the ninja and samurai, and if you want the more expensive full featured ones, are gonna really help bypass the transcoding step of editorial for r3d. you just hooked it up you your Epic, Scarlet whatever, and when you hit record, it will trigger the device to record via timecode. slap in a large capacity SSD or even spinning disc hard drive that's dirt cheap, that's your instantaneous editorial files, and easily used as dailies too. r3d remains the pure masters, you grade, and finish in r3d.

as much as we are all looking forward to a future of editing r3d and working with it till the end, there are plenty of people out there that can't do this workflow for various reasons. some including, they only have a laptop to edit on, and are going to conform in a facility later on. it's gonna be great. I'm thinking of picking up a sound device or samurai just to bring to set for instant dailies, and not needing rocket/mac tower on set. combine that with STORM on laptop with thunderbolt and offloading, should be solid.
 
stu aull said:
Exactly Shane-
this was more to my point: operational cost. (I understand your emphasis was more on Companion Recording)
I _Love_ Sound Devices (SD) gear (have one of their mixers) but, like the AJA recorders, even these are going to be PRICEY. As in: why-not-stick-with-RED-SSD Pricey. The AJA's start at $2K and I betting the SD's will be even more. Maybe I am in a different head-space about Cost-of-Operation than mainstream Scarlet Users. But in the Corporate/Documentary environment I work in (you know, where a project might be 10-25 reels of material), the nose-bleed price-of-entry into RED SSD will just not be either cost-effective (can't afford fists full of SSDs) or field-effective (I can afford a COUPLE of SSDs + Camera mount + station - but don't need the angst of constant access to a laptop and reswapping in limited SSDs throughout a shoot). Obv as SSDs get cheaper this will change, but that will be a couple of years down the road methinks.

Again, I Get the 3K argument. Its _potential_ use is a huge draw for me and certainly goes a long way to future-proofing my investment down the road. I _WILL_ buy a couple of 64Gig SSDs and the support hardware for "those special times" when I want/need The Glory of 3K. But for the other 90% of my work? Something like the HyperDecks or a Ninja will go a l-o-o-ng way to making my Scarlet system practical in the wee world of Nowhere, Alaska (and maybe places like Nowhere, MA - etc.)

Stu Aull
Alaska
Click to expand...

With the HyperDeck, you have to record uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2, which is 8 times the data rate of ProRes HQ.

So, you are going to need 8 times the storage capacity - instead of 2 256 GB SSD drives on the Sound Devices Pix 240, you'll probably use 16 SSD drives for the same storage capacity (in run time) on the BMD Hyperdeck.

OK ... so should I do the math?

$345 for a HyperDeck Shuttle, and 16 x $400 for 256GB SSD drives, or $6800

Or, $3000 (My own guesstimate of the price for the Pix 240) and 2 x $400 = $3800

So ... lets not make the mistake of thinking that the HyperDeck is a low cost solution.

It will become more economical as SSD drive capacities go up and prices come down.
 
Tom.Wong said:
a device like the ninja and samurai, and if you want the more expensive full featured ones, are gonna really help bypass the transcoding step of editorial for r3d. you just hooked it up you your Epic, Scarlet whatever, and when you hit record, it will trigger the device to record via timecode. slap in a large capacity SSD or even spinning disc hard drive that's dirt cheap, that's your instantaneous editorial files, and easily used as dailies too. r3d remains the pure masters, you grade, and finish in r3d.

as much as we are all looking forward to a future of editing r3d and working with it till the end, there are plenty of people out there that can't do this workflow for various reasons. some including, they only have a laptop to edit on, and are going to conform in a facility later on. it's gonna be great. I'm thinking of picking up a sound device or samurai just to bring to set for instant dailies, and not needing rocket/mac tower on set. combine that with STORM on laptop with thunderbolt and offloading, should be solid.
Click to expand...


This isn't aimed at you Tom ... but its important to clarify: If you use some sort of external recorder over HD-SDI or HDMI you get only a fraction of what the Red cameras can do.

This is important for some workflows where speed is an issue, as is being able to edit.

That is increasingly not an issue. The current 2011 MacBook Pro 17" handles 4K R3D pretty well in Resolve, and I imagine we can expect similar performance from FCP X.

Its not 2007 anymore and the computers are catching up enough to make an end to end R3D workflow manageable.

The only bottleneck in the Resolve setup is at final output- where you can really use a Rocket to debayer for best quality. Even so ... you can manage the whole process on a laptop now. (Use PCI-Express to a PCIe expansion chassis, and Thunderbolt for storage. Soon you can use a Thunderbolt to PCIe expander.)

Here is the thing- uncompressed used to be the uncompromised solution. For a lot of workflows its more than the project will ever need. Devices like the HyperDeck make attaining this level of performance an attainable standard.
 
Shane Betts said:
I know for a fact that both BMD and Atomos are working with Red right now to ensure their devices will work nicely with the Red output - ie: will record/pause with the camera and will record the file names used in-camera for easy link-back in post.
Click to expand...

We received an email from BMD in response to an inquiry about in-camera file names and they acknowledged SDI support for triggering and time code but regarding file names for link-back in post they said there's no word on whether the feature is being worked on or any timeframe.

Has anyone heard different? We like the idea of using a HyperDeck in our dailies workflow but without in-camera file names it wouldn't be easy to match up the HyperDeck files with the R3D's.
 
To answer the question why are people looking at alternatives to straight raw workflow maybe look elsewhere on this forum & read the bitch'n about about loss of business to Alexa with Pro rez workflow. I'm in a job right now for web which it's frankly overkill to be editing 4K & as soon as Atomos sort out the file handle situation I will be buying one. Sure 5-4k is preferable but that is not for every job & not every job needs this workflow.

These camera's are designed & can meet the needs of the job at hand, if you want to shoot a mouse with an elephant gun that's your business.

P.S. I would never underestimate BM with their "little boxes", maybe they've got a "quark storage device" in development. Having said that it will take a lot to beat Atomos Samuari IMO.
 
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Even for web 4k will become reality faster than many may think. Computer-displays are coming, the GPU's are already prepared and even youtube supports 4k today. Home-Cinema & TV-solutions with 4k are clearly visible on the horizon too. So why the hell aren't you shooting 4k with your 4k-camera? ;)

Shooting 4k (or 5k) and REDCODE-RAW are two of the biggest reasons to use a RED (there are more than that, i know). I don't understand why people sacrifice that so easily. ;) A 4k-output might not be needed today, but having the option to make it happen in a year or two is reason enough to shoot 4k today, well for me. Besides that, shooting 4k for 2k-output gives nice room for re-framing, stabilizing, de-noising, vfx...

BTW, i can see the benefits of recording simultaneously to 4k-REDRAW and 2k-PRORES for todays editing-needs, but disabling the internal recording is like destroying a 35mm-negative after doing a FullHD-transfer.
 
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